Talk:Call to the bar

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Opening heading[edit]

United States: Generally, a lawyer is said to have been "admitted to the Bar" and become an "attorney at law" (some states still use the older term "attorney and counselor at law") upon taking his or her oath of office. Historically, the institution of attorney was similar to that of the solicitor, whereas the office of the counselor was almost identical to that of the barrister, but today this distinction has disappeared. The phrase "called to the Bar" is still sometimes used informally by US attorneys to refer to their qualification as a lawyer.

I think this should be the other way around: If a solicitor counsels and a barrister pleads, the a barrister would be equivalent to an attorney, and a solicitor a counselor.
A barrister is not equivalent to an American attorney, though; except in certain circumstances he is not allowed to deal directly with the client and must accept work directly from solicitors. I think an English Solicitor-Advocate would probably be closest to your "attorney". Ironholds (talk) 13:36, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry about that --- I've read up on it and I realize my mistake. It seems the barrister is "counselor" because the solicitor frequently his opinion on specialized points of law, while the solicitor is "attorney" because --- although he does't represent the client before court ---he may serve as his representative in all other matters. --Jpbrenna (talk) 03:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Well without getting into the nitty-gritty a solicitor can represent his client before the court, but for the most part you are correct. Perhaps linking to the American definitions within the article would help clear up any confusion on the part of the reader? Ironholds (talk) 04:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Language use is Britain specific.[edit]

I realize that as a an article concerning the legal system of the UK this article is entitled to a degree of region-specific language, but if somebody could take out overt colloquialisms I would appreciate it. I am unable to understand many of the dialectical euphemisms used herein. The most important example I see is "taken the silk". I have not an inkling of what that truly means. If that could get replaced, I would thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.92.133 (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

For info, "Taking silk" is a colloquial phrase for being appointed Queens Counsel, when one's Court Dress becomes a silk gown instead of a cheap "stuff" gown. A QC is also referred to as "a silk".Jezza (talk) 00:44, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Utter Bar-locks[edit]

I do not believe the following, and as no citation is given I have simply deleted it:

"This is in contrast to "inner barristers" – an old-fashioned name for student barristers because they formally sat on the "inner" tables at Hall, during dinners, debates and moots. "Utter" barristers – both junior Counsel and Queen's Counsel – would sit on the outermost tables"

That could conceivably have been the former practice of one of the Inns, but not mine; and the concept of being called to the Outside of the Bar (or Outer or Utter Bar), else being called within it, is common to all four Inns. A bar student has never been any sort of barrister. When a student is Called to the Bar, he is explicitly appointed "of the Degree of the Utter Bar". By contrast, Queen's Counsel are invited Within the Bar in open Court.Jezza (talk) 00:39, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

resemblance to "called to Bar Mitzvah ..."[edit]

Has the origin of the term been sufficiently researched? The whole description of a bar as a wooden barrier or banister does not make much sense. Being barricaded from the judge was hardly the distinguishing feature of the profession. The connection to "being summoned" likewise sounds superfluous; it is more appropriate for witnesses and such, not the lawyer.

On the other hand laws and canon ( quanoon ) in old times were integral part of Judaic as well as Islamic religious tradition. A person coming of age is said to be "called to Bar Mitzvah". The person reads to the gathering some passage from the scripture etc and is then on considered aware of the precepts and responsible for his / her own actions.

The apprentice lawyer "being called to the Bar" seems to be a secular phrase borrowed from this religious custom.

- U A Yajnik, IIT Bombay 16 November 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.163.227.38 (talk) 02:00, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

 – User:JCScaliger has been indef blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Pmanderson (blocked for another year for abusive sockpuppetry).
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved to Call to the bar. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)



Call to the BarCall to the bar

Per WP:MOSCAPS ("Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization") and WP:TITLE, this is a generic, common term, not a propriety or commercial term, so the article title should be downcased. Lowercase will match the formatting of related article titles.

Downcasing is common, for example:

  • [www.lsuc.org/CalltoBar Upper Canada Law Society]: "Generally, a call to the bar follows the successful completion of the Licensing Process."] Tony (talk) 07:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • [en.wiktionary.org/wiki/call_to_the_bar Wiktionary]
  • [business.financialpost.com/2011/08/23/call-to-the-bar/ Financial Post]

Tony (talk) 07:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Support on caps; oppose using "called" instead of "call". Don't we prefer using nouns and noun phrases in titles? See WP:NOUN. Dohn joe (talk) 21:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support as a generic term, as opposed to a specific bar, such as "Call to the Bar of England and Wales". – ukexpat (talk) 17:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
    • Qualifying my support - support on caps, oppose call --> called (missed that the first time) – ukexpat (talk) 01:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support on caps; oppose using "called". Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed.) lists the term as a noun viz. "call to the bar" (and says "also termed calling to the bar" [italics in original]). "called to the bar" (verbal usage) is not cited in Black's. --S. Rich (talk) 21:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose as above, but also regret decapitalizing Bar. We lose a useful distinction; a "call to the Bar" is the beginning of a legal carreer (and always means a specific bar: English, Australian, American federal or state); a "call to the bar" is nautical or, more often, alcoholic. JCScaliger (talk) 19:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
    • I looked, but can't find any nautical usage for the term. The closest is a call to the bar of an Admiralty court. If there was such usage, it could be cleared up via a "distinguish" hatnote. Also, references to alcoholic usage are rare. Last call -- shall we settle this?--S. Rich (talk) 21:56, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
      • Nice, but I would still like a more recognizable title. JCScaliger (talk) 23:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
        • The page has roughly 3,000+ page views per month (x last 3 months). I doubt that they are experiencing confusion in recognizing what the article is about. E.g., they are not looking for nautical or drinking references.--S. Rich (talk) 07:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oops, sorry everyone: slip of the fingers in typing "called". Fixed now. Tony (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support. Legal dictionaries, including Black's does not capitalize "bar" in the "call to the bar" entries. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Etymology[edit]

The explanation of the origin of the term is backwards, see http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bar&allowed_in_frame=0 --Espoo (talk) 17:39, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

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Merger proposal[edit]

I propose that Call to the bar be merged into Admission to practice law. They are not identical, but they are sufficiently similar and overlapping that the content in the Call to the bar article can easily be included in the article on Admission to practice law. Much of the material is already duplicated in any event. Let's consolidate the discussion at: Talk:Admission to practice law#Merger proposal --Legis (talk - contribs) 14:39, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

This is currently in this article:

Historically, the institution of attorney was similar to that of the solicitor, whereas the office of the counselor was almost identical to that of the barrister

I wonder whether this reverses the roles. A solicitor advises, and is thus a counselor. A barrister acts for another, which is what a person with a "power of attorney" does. ||||