User talk:Aza24

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Fukagawa Susaki and Jūmantsubo, Hiroshige, 1857, One Hundred Famous Views of Edo
Bichitr, Jahangir Preferring a Sufi Shaikh to Kings, 1615–1618
Notice anyone?

Henri-Guillaume Hamal[edit]

I never imagined that anyone would follow the clues I posted at ANI (I saw no reason to advertise the article to illustrate a general point). I like the image of this church official improvising (possibly risqué) songs in dialect while accompanying himself on the cello.

I came across the Hamal clan when YouTube randomly offered me Henri-Guillaume's grandson Henri's Trumpet Concerto, which is rather fun. I'd love to know its date, and what instrument he was writing for (though I'd guess the natural trumpet). I don't think the presence of a continuo part is any guide; I have the impression that Liège was a provincial backwater. I'm stalled on his biography (currently in a sandbox); the sources aren't entirely clear as to whether or not he continued to compose after Saint Lambert's Cathedral, Liège was torn down in 1794-95, and I've been puzzling over it. He must have been writing for a virtuoso; and if that was in the early 1790s, he may have written one of the earliest Classical trumpet concertos (Michael Haydn was 1763 and Josef 1796). Narky Blert (talk) 11:37, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Don't you just hate it when some interfering ****hole sticks their oar in? Sorry. The concerto is absolutely gorgeous but I am having trouble seeing how it is a trumpet concerto at all. I feel it is certainly not on a natural instrument as it's playing a lot of unlikely notes. (I have not made an exhaustive study and would love to be wrong but that's my starting guess.) If it wasn't written for a nat, then what? Haydn was only just getting going with his mate Weidinger's keyed instrument in 1796 and this is, I am sure, beyond its capabilities. I'm also having trouble tracking down the music, which I'd love to see, or any reference to it. The recordings I am keeping seeing are mostly (all??) Maurice Andre, and he was a massive user of transcriptions. Is it not possible that this lovely work is actually a violin or oboe concerto or something? That seems to me to be a better fit for what I am hearing but I would be delighted to be proven wrong and to get educated a bit. Seriously. I only think I am right but being wrong would be lovely! Cheers DBaK (talk) 16:55, 9 April 2021 (UTC) Update: and now I am worried that all the above just sounds terrible arsey and showoffish and I would have been better to just STFU ... gah.
@DBaK: Not on IMSLP; and yes, André's recording sounds like it has a pile of accidentals. It's the only recording of anything by Henri I've found. I'm inclined to agree, and will place a small wager on oboe. Pace Michael Collins, transcription from strings to brass or wind is uncommon (double stopping is tricky). I've failed to find any printed scores, so even the attribution must be open to doubt.
BTW, have you ever heard Haydn's Clarinet Concerto? No? Well, you can find it on YouTube. And a double... Narky Blert (talk) 18:10, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Narky Blert & DBak (all oars welcome), I love the attention you've given to the least important member of that family (Henri-Guillaume Hamal) :) — it is tremendously fun to scrap the internet for niche sources on minor composers; I've been meaning to do this on Cataldo Amodei, who, late last year, received the weirdest page views spike I've ever seen.
As far as Henri Hamal, that is indeed a mighty fine concerto. It may well have been for trumpet; the seemingly unreal high notes and surplus of them for the supposably limited natural trumpet, that is, are somewhat well explained. Since the natural trumpet works on the overtone series, as the notes of the trumpets rise, the distance between them decrease, so more notes are available only in the highest register(s). I suspect soloist trumpeters at the time were used to this, as a required necessity, and were indeed virtuosos in that respect. As trumpets evolved, people specialized in high notes less—and the non-soloists never did in the first place—so these kinds of quick passages were found extremely difficult (the most famous example being Bach's Second Brandenburg concerto). Eventually this resulted in the need for the piccolo trumpet (aka the "crutch trumpet!"). Now in the days of Alison Balsom and Wynton Marsalis—where anything is playable on any instrument—I believe its standard for trumpet players to be expected to play the original parts on modern trumpets (besides HIP), without using the piccolo variant. Apologies if I'm repeating information either of you are aware of!
The exact date for the concerto is probably nonexistent; one could assume it was written during his time as the director of the cathedral (1769–1793). If Henri wasn't writing music for anyone specifically after 1793, I would be surprised if he did at all. Even the annoyingly prolific Telemann retired at some point; the time of people like Mozart writing until the absolute end wasn't commonplace then. The earliest trumpet concerto-composer I can think off the top of my head is Torelli (1658–1709), much earlier than Henri; Maurizio Cazzati (1616–1678) has the first known trumpet sonata, for perspective. Aza24 (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes and roger to all of the above. Andre in this recording is absolutely playing it on a picc, yes. My worry isn't the high notes - it's the low ones! I am sort-of sure that it's got stepwise scalework passages and, as Narky says, surprising accidentals, too low down for a nat. I can't prove it without more work and I don't have the golden ears to just hit it immediately but I am pretty sure that I heard that. I suppose I ought to either shut up or do that "more work", but it won't be very immediate, sorry. It's going to sound very very arsey indeed if I say "if it were a real tpt concerto then I suspect that I would probably have heard of it" ... hmmm ok no. But yes. Also it is not mentioned at all on the International Trumpet Guild website ... is that a measure??? Sorry, I hate myself sometimes. But it's my daughter's birthday jollities so please excuse me and accept my apologies for this weebly and very rushed semicoherent reply. Cheers DBaK (talk) 18:23, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Ah I see, I may have overdone it with my response. Might have been for cornet originally, which would explain a lot. Aza24 (talk) 18:27, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
It's also fun to post a footnote saying in effect - Grove is wrong. Even if it takes considerable research to write it.
I picked on H-G as the easiest of the three to write up first. Jean-Noël was clearly the most considerable of them; but I've set him to one side as the man who tried to make it in the Big City (Paris) and failed; which means that getting a fair balance into his biography is trickier. Narky Blert (talk) 18:38, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Grove is so eh sometimes, and all too often we blow them out of the water (I Holst Grove vs ours; F. Andrieu Grove vs ours). They don't even have articles on rather important figures like Sordello or Maxim Berezovsky. They also spelled "Nietzche" wrong three times—don't ask how I know that ;) Aza24 (talk) 18:50, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Hmmm, by "earliest Classical trumpet concertos" did you perhaps mean classical period? I assumed you meant Classical music as a whole, which is why I brought up Torelli, but if not then your observation is most astute. I seem to be on a roll with misinterpretation today—I'd better go play something no one can interpret (say Sorabji or Finnissy) to make myself feel better... Aza24 (talk) 19:40, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I'm back briefly ... I just wanted to say: no, not cornet. Long boring discussion available on request but life's too short, to be honest. The dates, style and everything are just wrong ... I am still guessing it's a repurposed oboe concerto or similar. I really don't think it was originally a brass concerto though, as I say, I would be delighted to be educated otherwise. But I have to add: I am intrigued by the comment about Grove is wrong ... to what does that allude? I may have missed the memo; I am also very cross because my local libraries have given up their online Grove sub, which is a bit of a drag for me, to put it very mildly. Ho hum. Cheers DBaK (talk) 22:38, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
The only way we will know for sure is if we could find access to this, which seems to contain a complete list of compositions on the composer in question. By the way—you still have access to grove through oxford music online at the Wikipedia library, which if you sign up for the "Library Bundle" gives free, instant access—perks of being a Wikipedia editor :) The grove comment was on note a in Henri-Guillaume Hamal. Aza24 (talk) 22:54, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Also note d. Narky Blert (talk) 06:17, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
@DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered and Narky Blert: sorry to pull you both back here, but I took another look around and it seems that—from all available evidence—the work is a repurposed oboe concerto (kudos to DBK!). I've found a less-than-reliable site that says "This is a transcription of an oboe concerto" in regards to the work in question; also re here it seems that two other works on Andre's album are repurposed oboe concertos, making just one more likely. It still blows my mind that the work is nowhere on RISM (neither oboe or trumpet), part of me thinks the work was misattributed in the album credits. Oh well, take some early Webern for the road. Aza24 (talk) 07:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Axa24, @DBaK: Ooh great work! That feels very plausible to me. High trumpeters were never too thick on the ground, and I had wondered what one was doing in Liège. Definitely worth an {{efn}} in my (currently stalled) draft bio of Henri.
I've a fancy for the later stuff meself; underneath that mathematical rigour, it can seethe with post-Romantic Viennese emotion. Gerard Hoffnung and John Amis weren't being entirely unserious at the 1958 Hoffnung Music Festival - "Punkt Contrapunkt" (Humphrey Searle aka Bruno Heinx Jaja). Radio 3 did a Webern Day some years ago, and several of the presenters could scarcely conceal their distaste. Narky Blert (talk) 09:21, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
I've never heard of that festival! I thought all we had was P. D. Q. Bach and Victor Borge... Aza24 (talk) 18:22, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Please don't apologize – it's nice to follow up. Yup re the concerto. André did a LOT of digging through other people's stuff for nice things to play on his picc. Purists would have kittens, of course, but I say it's all just music and whatthehell whatthehell. I've always loved his transcription performances while just putting the authenticity thing on a back burner in my mind. And the Hoffnung festival – yes, there are some wonderful stories from there. I never went to one but I think my in-laws may have done. There's a great Belshazzar/Owen Brannigan story from one, which I will try to find for you. Cheers DBaK (talk) 15:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
Ah yes, the Walton performance – conducted by the composer and with Brannigan as the soloist – is here. Enjoy. DBaK (talk) 16:18, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
Is that when Walton used a flyswatter rather than a baton?
One of the Hoffnung commissions has gained something of an independent life - Malcolm Arnold's A Grand Grand Overture, Op. 57. (That audience didn't seem to know what to make of it.) Not a bad performance, though the organ isn't loud enough for my taste, and I prefer the piece on period instruments - the vacuum cleaners and floor polisher should be stand-up models. Narky Blert (talk) 11:45, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
At least he didn't use a tooth pick. And oh my, that is an absolute gem of a piece—right up there with the typewriter concerto. For some reason, it reminds me of this (skip to ~34 seconds), which is apparently called for? Aza24 (talk) 19:49, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Leroy Anderson - "The Typewriter".
I can't find a report, but some years ago (1980s?), after the premiere of a particularly distressing piece, one of the bassists solemnly laid his instrument on the floor, and jumped up and down on it to relieve his feelings. The audience applauded, assuming it was part of the score.
Arnold wasn't exactly the 20th century Telemann, but his symphonies (he wrote the traditional nine) are worth the occasional listen. He was far too tonal to get programmed often during his lifetime. As a professional trumpeter, he knew how to give the brass section a workout.
For another piece with an unexpected intervention or two, Peter Maxwell Davies' An Orkney Wedding with Sunrise. There's a long tradition of this sort of thing, all the way back to at least Biber's Battalia, with its drunken musketeers singing "Lillibulero"; a more stately version of Ives. Narky Blert (talk) 01:06, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Gosh I love Biber, I've been meaning to get his article to GA but I have a feeling there is going to be quite a bit of literature to go through. I need to listen to more Arnold—his name is too unfamiliar to me—any specific symphonies I should be looking at? Aza24 (talk) 00:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Biber is definitely undervalued. (He certainly thought so; he put considerable effort into getting that "von".) I must try to promote him onto my YouTube recommended list.
I don't know the Arnold symphonies well enough to single any out. Having reminded myself of them, I'm working my way through the cycle. However, from the early Romantics on, starting with the first and last (and possibly those whose numbers are divisible by five) is often a sound introduction. Narky Blert (talk) 11:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

A tune for no reason[edit]

Dunno what you'd think of this: Mark Hollis Ceoil (talk) 07:28, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

So soothing! In a nostalgic but sentimental kind of way. The muted trumpet was a nice (and unexpected) touch. I know not what to offer you in return, except what I'm listening too right now... Aza24 (talk) 08:19, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
For years I thought it was a muted harmonica! I *love* the Grimaud piece; its obvs about the, sigh, notes he doesn't play. See also. I'm guessing you are a fair bit younger than me, so wait for nostalgic being a big deal! The years catch up on us all. Ceoil (talk) 08:39, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) – sorry to annoyingly pop up again ... I wanted to thank Ceoil for the lovely Hollis link. I didn't know his work, and enjoyed it greatly. As a Certified Trumpet Owner™ I can officially confirm that yes it is a muted, probably harmon-muted, trumpet at ~03:35 on there for about a minute. It's very very nice - I wonder if the personnel is listed somewhere as I would love to know who played. They are better than me, therefore I hate them. Tsk.
The Grimaud thing is lovely but every time there should have been a nice little trumpet solo, someone started playing some old piano! Sheesh. However it was saved from complete brassless disaster by some excellent horn playing so that's OK. ... but, seriously, wonderful performance, fantastic players all round. Best to all DBaK (talk) 07:49, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
No apology necessary, if there's anything universally excepted, it's that you can't shut trumpet players up. Kidding of course, well, only partially :) You know who doesn't give you any pauses of false hope for trumpet solos? Horowitz—nearly 2 and half minutes shorter on the same piece! Almost like he's... err... Russian... okay yep I'm done. Aza24 (talk) 15:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
ps, DBaK...its Henry Lowther on the Hollis song. Ceoil (talk) 18:57, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
pps Aza, its far from soothing, to me is about regret, being head in hands late at night looking into a dimming fire and going, universe is big, I am small, I regret x,y,z.....fffuuuccc. Its presented as bittersweet (romantic beauty in nihilism), which is where you might get be getting nostalgia from. Hollis has a significant body of work, and was never considered a laughing boy. Ceoil (talk) 00:23, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Indeed—your take is all too appropriate Aza24 (talk) 02:53, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Another tune, same band, which is for Gerda also as I see above that she watches here. I would be about as militant atheist as they come, and this is about personal rather than spiritual redemption, but my god does it get close to the medieval ideal of religious ecstasy.[1] Ceoil (talk) 16:43, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Claus Sluter: This why Christian iconography
Yes, watching, just with little time (Christa Ludwig died, Leontyne Price's article still suffers from a lack of references, and - seen today - Anja Silja's had not even links to the operas ...), and yes, there's something divine about music beyond credds and denominations. - I came, Aza, to ask what you think about the sentence - on the Main page right now, and seen only now - "William Tell is a French-language opera"? (I think it's a contradiction in terms). Seen here when coming: why would you revert an infobox that the Blessed Brian installed? (There was consensus then, only afterwards, someone counted noses instead of arguments, and reverted.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:51, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Twas reverted for the sole reason that if I hadn't someone else would have—the Chopin page has been under serious scrutiny lately (for other reasons). I'd be surprised if an RM passed at William Tell, it doesn't have the same backing reasons as Der fliegende Holländer Aza24 (talk) 21:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Replied to revert below, and understand no Guillaume ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Honestly, I always forget that Guillaume is French-text—same with Oberon being English - Aza24 (talk) 15:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I always use the word "nostalgia" with a bit of unfamiliarity... your sentiment reminds me of Sam Harris, (if you don't know him) he's militant atheist as well, but obsessed with promoting and achieving secular spirituality. Religions have monopolies on a lot of things, but they can't take that from us :) BTW do you think you'll take part in the core contest this year? I'm considering taking a crack at Classical music or the History of music—both in fairly awful shape—but not certain.... Aza24 (talk) 00:49, 3 May 2021 (UTC)


I have noticed you have reverted the infobox on the article Frédéric Chopin. Biographical articles must have infoboxes to demonstrate information and to classify them. This is a must, for me.

- Doctorine Dark Doctorine Dark (talk) 12:20, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Wikipedia does not operate on what "is a must" for you. Infoboxes can be contenious on composer biographies and there was no consensus to add one for the Chopin article, which is a WP:Featured article, meaning it has been through a throughout community vetting process. If I hadn't reverted you, someone else doubtlessly would have. See MOS:INFOBOXUSE. Aza24 (talk) 21:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
As said in a thread above, in this particular case, there was consensus (after FA) which was overturned (and it still hurts - me at least). Yes, someone else would have done it. How about let someone else do it next time which will doubtlessly come? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:13, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, I'll stay out of it if it happens again... :) Aza24 (talk) 15:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)


Hey Aza. Thanks for your useful and thoughtful comments on human. I have had another go at editing the article and would welcome any more feedback you might have. Still got a few things I want to do; maybe expand war to "Violence and captivity" (or "conflict" or something better named), expand history and reduce evolution per Dunkleosteus and do some more work on the lead. Not looking for perfect here, just a decent overview article. Sorry for the slow responses to your first comments, I think I might have slightly underestimated the difficulty of working on this one. Aircorn (talk) 08:23, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your note Aircorn. No worries on any delay in responding, the article is definitely intimidating, but I think you're certainly on the right track for GA—an endeavor which is admirable in itself. An expansion of the war section sounds like a good idea; I'll try and comb through and standardize the formatting of some sources a bit, if it can be of any help. Aza24 (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of John Thomas Douglass[edit]

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article John Thomas Douglass you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. Time2wait.svg This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Amitchell125 -- Amitchell125 (talk) 14:00, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

The first pages of the The Pilgrim: A Grand Overture
Hello Aza24, sorry but I couldn't help but get the music out there, please feel free to add it the article. I will probably finish the job within a few days. If you'd like a 'live version', I might be able to get one! Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 20:31, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Amitchell125, awesome, thank you! Though, I notice two things: the notes going into the b minor chord in measure 7 appear to be incorrect in the recording. Also, there seems to be a little bit a weird rhythm in the beginning; right now it sounds as if the 8th notes at measure 9 are the same length as the left-hand sixteenth notes earlier—not sure why though. A live recording would be great—if possible. I was going to record it myself, but I have other piano pieces I'm in the middle of learning that I dare not stray from (the Italian Concerto and a couple Mozart sonatas). Aza24 (talk) 20:56, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, corrections made. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of John Thomas Douglass[edit]

The article John Thomas Douglass you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold Symbol wait.svg. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:John Thomas Douglass for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Amitchell125 -- Amitchell125 (talk) 14:40, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Nice to meet you![edit]

I wanted to thank you for the work you do on classical music articles, in general. (Sometimes I feel that there are just too few of us wikieditors out there for this massive topic.) Indeed, I was at first surprised that we'd never crossed paths before (at least not to my memory), but then I realized that your dedication to medieval and Renaissance music—and my singular focus on Nordic 20th century composers... oh, who am I kidding, I'm a Sibelian through-and-through—would mean that we operate in distinct subareas, albeit as kindred spirits.

Anyway, I thought I might call upon you for advice. As you can see here, I am working on an upgrade to Discography of Sibelius symphony cycles, a list-article that I created a few years ago but, in typical fashion, never completed to my precise liking. As a member of Wikiprojects Lists, I thought you might be able to give me some pointers... good job here... let's change this there... as, eventually, I'd like to have this list become GA (can lists even become GA?).

Also, one further point, I do have GA ambitions on the Madetoja bio. Do you think it's close? I remember having mainly left just one section (Music) incomplete, thinking that someone else could do a better job than I. But, that article was so much research and labor (of love), so it'd be a shame never to let ole Leevi have his circled green plus symbol. Thoughts? Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 20:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Silence of Järvenpää: very nice to meet you as well! I vaguely recall seeing you on my watchlist at Gerda's talk a few weeks ago. I do try to focus on early music, but there is so much to do in the realm of classical music as a whole that I repeatedly fine myself getting distracted by later eras! Your contributions to the quality of Sibelius's oeuvre is admirable.
Lists can't be GAs, but FLC is not nearly as rigorous as FAC, I assure you. I see some things that would doubtlessly arise at FLC:
  • The entries most likely need individual references
  • I find it fairly unlikely that some of the years for certain cycles are unknown, maybe search them up on world cat?
  • Nowadays it is de facto practice to not say "This article lists" or "This is a list of"—as its obvious from the title. I would recommend starting with something along the lines of "The Finnish Romantic composer Jean Sibelius (1865–1957) wrote seven symphonies, which many conductors and conductors have recorded complete cycles of."
  • At some point, you'll want to add something to the lead about which recordings are particularly acclaimed and which are the earliest. Do be sure to briefly bring up No. 8 and how its lost. You might even want to say that he wrote eight symphonies, the final of which was destroyed or something.
  • Hmm the runtimes are tricky. I actually really like them and think they're helpful to compare, but I'm not sure if people at FLC will agree. They seem hard to source as well
It would be terrific if you got the discography to FL; there aren't nearly enough classical music FLs. I'd be happy to chip in a source review if you end up at FLC.
Madetoja is indeed an impressive endeavor. I would say it is very close to GA standards. The only issue seems to be some paragraphs lacking sources, e.g. the ends of "A new Finnish symphonist", "Two final masterworks", "death", "personal life", "Idiom", "Notable works" and "symphonies"—which may seem like a lot, but that's only maybe less than 10 citations needed. I also notice quite a few external links in the article text, which I'm fairly certain are not allowed. If you're open to it, I would be happy to review it, were you to purse GA further. Best - Aza24 (talk) 00:21, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for your warm greetings and sage advice. I have learned a ton reviewing the code for your FL on Monteverdi's opera. (Indeed, if you take a new peek at my sandbox, you'll notice a few of your tell-tale touches, I think... how about that multi-column row! I've never been able to figure it out, until now.) I should note, however, that when you first viewed the list, it was (and remains) incomplete... hence the missing years and such. (I don't put info in the table until I can verify it by looking at official CD or LP liner notes; they're all I trust.) Also, on the runtimes... haha, I'll got to the mat for them; indeed, desiring a comparative listing is the reason I undertook the article in the first place. I note that all runtimes in the table are official, as printed on CD or LP liner notes. For some recordings, the notes only provide runtimes for a symphony's constituent movements; in these cases, I added the movement runtimes to obtain a total duration. Hopefully, such careful sourcing will appease the doubters at FLC. Thanks... and do feel free to make other suggestions as they occur to you! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 16:23, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Quick request for help. I'm trying to copy your plainrowheader color code for in progress cycles, but I cannot get the code to work. I just want the green, but instead am also getting bold and centering. Thoughts? (User:Silence of Järvenpää/sandbox#Table of notable incomplete cycles). Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 02:49, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Ah yes Silence of Järvenpää, it's those pesky (and tiny) exclamation points that do the bold & centering
| scope="row" style="background:#E3F6CE;" | vs ! scope="row" style="background:#E3F6CE;" |.
I would recommend adding an asterisk, dagger ({{dagger}}) or something so the color blind can see the distinction (WP:ACCESS)—though I suppose it could be inferred from the incomplete years, it's up to you. Aza24 (talk) 04:08, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi! Quick question. In the citation template, is there a way to make the ordering be: publisher, id, OCLC... rather than the default publisher, OCLC, id? I ask because it just seems odd to have the OCLC come between the two pieces of information that relate to the publisher. Here's an example:
*Sibelius: Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 / Finlandia (CD booklet). Pietari Inkinen & New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. Naxos. 2011. OCLC 752482990. 8.572705.CS1 maint: others in cite AV media (notes) (link)
The 8.572705 just feels orphaned to me. Thanks! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 10:16, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Hmmm there's no way ordering built into the actual template (I think), but I there may be a solution. Normally you could just use a parameter called "postscript" and Template:OCLC, but using templates in that parameter doesn't seem to be supported. So the best thing is probably to just use Template:OCLC and place it outside, but directly after the reference:
  • Sibelius: Symphonies Nos. 6 & 7 / Finlandia (CD booklet). Pietari Inkinen & New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. Naxos. 2011. 8.572705.CS1 maint: others in cite AV media (notes) (link) OCLC 752482990.
That's my take, at least. Aza24 (talk) 20:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Featured and good topic candidates[edit]

Hello, I have seen on the history of the candidates page that you are the one who decides what happens with the nominations. I would like to ask have you considered posting messages on users' talk pages informing them the noms have passed, assuring they are aware? --K. Peake 09:29, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake:, hmm this is a good wake up call in many ways. I've been meaning to talk to the other delegate and director about how I've basically done the last 5 promotions by myself; the fact that others seem to be noticing this is as good an incentive to do so as any. I like your idea—it reminds me of what some people at do at FAC (example). Any suggestions on layout? I could see using a similar format to the aforementioned FAC example. Aza24 (talk) 19:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Yeah something like that, just mention them being collections of good/featured articles instead of the "one of the best articles" part. Sorry for the late reply, it's my birthday today so I've not been active. --K. Peake 19:42, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Oh my, happy belated birthday! Aza24 (talk) 03:57, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of John Thomas Douglass[edit]

The article John Thomas Douglass you nominated as a good article has passed Symbol support vote.svg; see Talk:John Thomas Douglass for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Amitchell125 -- Amitchell125 (talk) 20:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Source review[edit]

Hey, I had seen that you have done source reviews on other lists recently. Would you be willing to do one for Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Timeline of the 2018 Pacific hurricane season/archive1? NoahTalk 03:23, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Hurricane Noah, thanks for reaching out, I'll be sure to give it a look either later today or tomorrow. Best - Aza24 (talk) 04:08, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. NoahTalk 19:50, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Reply to your recommendation[edit]

Hello, I saw that you recommended me to nominate the article Ming treasure voyages. Sorry for the late response, since I saw the message a bit late and decided to prepare for a GA nomination before responding back. You don't need to feel obliged to do a review, I'm in no real rush. I wanted to say that I appreciate your words. :) --Cold Season (talk) 01:23, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@Cold Season: I'm thrilled to see you've decided to do so. I certainly want to take up the nomination, but may have to find time later in the week. I had been working on Cai Lun and was looking at Zheng He for my next Chinese history project here—though now I'm considering Xuanzang instead—and found the Ming treasure voyages. And I must say, I was very surprised to find the article in such good shape. Aza24 (talk) 19:03, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Paper Mario good topic query[edit]

Wikipedia:Featured topics/Paper Mario.

Hey Aza! The lead article in this good topic, Paper Mario, was promoted to featured article status today. Is there a specific process to updating this, or do I just change the icon on the topic? Panini!🥪 12:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Panini—updating it yourself is fine in this case (I've just done so). If at some point the articles grow to the point that the topic is now classified as a featured one (i.e. 50% or more is featured), just let me or another delegate/director know and we can take care of the technical updating. Aza24 (talk) 15:19, 26 May 2021 (UTC)


Would a topic like this be okay or would Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/2018 Pacific hurricane season/archive1 have to count as a subtopic if it passes? I have seen people opposed to including any subtopics since all the Southern Hemisphere seasons can't be included since they are split between multiple years. I personally would rather not include subtopics here.NoahTalk 19:39, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Hmm—it would be a bit odd to make that a subtopic of your proposed major one, mainly because one of the points of subtopics is to have them largely consist of articles not in the bigger topic. What might be a better goal is to have a bunch of subtopics, (e.g. 2018 Pacific hurricane season, 2018 Atlantic hurricane season, 2018 North Indian Ocean cyclone season etc.) and then have the lead articles of these subtopics as a main Tropical cyclones in 2018 one—if that makes sense? Aza24 (talk) 01:01, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
The issue is none of the southern hemisphere seasons could be subtopics since they are split between two years as the seasons generally run from November to April or May. It would be weird imo to have just the northern hemisphere season articles and then include a bunch of southern hemisphere storms and misc. storms that form in odd locations outside the general basins. I think it may be better to just have 2018 Pacific hurricane season exist as its own independent topic and then have the 2018 tropical cyclones as another. NoahTalk 01:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Ah I see, in that case it seems your initial thought is the best route. I do wonder if some will object to it, but I think when the situation is explained to these hypothetical objectors, they would agree as well. Aza24 (talk) 01:26, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
How long do topic noms generally last? Is it about a month like FAC and FLC? It may be the lack of an older noms list that throws me off. NoahTalk 17:24, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Usually 2–3 weeks. Yours certainly has consensus, I'll look to promoting it tonight or tomorrow (there's no bot to make promotion quick so I have to update the templates manually). Aza24 (talk) 23:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Maybe someone needs to make a bot for closing topic noms then. NoahTalk 22:33, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Definitely, there's one being worked on at the bot request page right now actually. Looking at yours now. Aza24 (talk) 09:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Request for feedback on an article[edit]

Hi there, hope this is the appropriate place to post this. I'm a student working on the following article, String Quartet No. 10 (Shostakovich) and see that you have edited articles in this domain. Any feedback you could offer on mine would be much appreciated. Thanks so much.

Zawinul lava (talk) 00:44, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Zawinul lava: congratulations (and thank you) for your high-quality work on this article! I see you've nominated it to go under review to be a good article—this might have been a little preemptive, but you're definitely on the right track. Here's what I'm thinking:
  • The "Structure" section can probably be combined into the beginning of the "Music" section—see here for an example of what I mean
  • Generally, you're going to want to give specific page numbers in the books you're citing; perhaps even page ranges, if more convenient—otherwise true verifiability is minimal
  • I find myself wanting a lot more in the lead—there's quite a bit of interesting information in the lower sections that could be summed up here, particularly from Music and reception sections
  • Any picture that could be included? Along this lines, it would be very beneficial to offer the reader some images of the music, perhaps some of the main themes.
  • I do wonder if anything more could be said in the both the "Allegretto furioso" and "Performances and recordings" sections
  • You might consider moving the line from the "Influence" into the end of the reception one. I suspect there's not much else to write in an "Influence" section for this piece anyways.
That's my take, do let me know if I can be of further assistance. Aza24 (talk) 07:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

June 2021 at Women in Red[edit]

WiR Pride June 2021.png
Women in Red | June 2021, Volume 7, Issue 6, Numbers 184, 188, 196, 199, 200, 201

Online events:

Other ways to participate:

Facebook icon.jpg Facebook | Instagram.svg Instagram | Pinterest Shiny Icon.svg Pinterest | Twitter icon.png Twitter

--Rosiestep (talk) 18:48, 28 May 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

History of music[edit]

Great choice, and am sure anything you research and add will be very interesting. Its a fascinating topic I'm sure and looking forward to seeing where in medieval history you can describe the type of music they listened to in confidence. BTY, when you get to the [i demand] dedicated sections on 1990s Scandinavian Black metal and early 2000s's Minimal techno, I have a load of books. DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered is your man for covering the late 1986 Bridgton, trumpet lead Oi! scene :) Anyway, delight that you are thinking of taking this on. Ceoil (talk) 04:57, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm already regretting it...! Well not really—but it is troubling how undeveloped (academically) the idea of an entire history of music is compared to say the history of art or human history in general. You do bring up an interesting point though; when (if) I get to the 20th century... it's going to be extremely awkward and unnatural to try and sum up so many genres so succinctly. Maybe throwing all that away for 1990s Scandinavian Black metal and early 2000s's Minimal techno is the bolt hole I needed :) Aza24 (talk) 07:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Ach, for post elvis pop music, focus on the instrumentation/equipment (first drums bass and guitar, now synths, sequencers and auto-tuner), and very good boundless 21th c fragmentation into micro styles. Re the pitfalls of trying to doing much or over intellectualize pop music, see the cautionary history here. Ceoil (talk) 00:47, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Geez. Yeah, too many things are not as profound as some would have us believe. Technology seems like a good solution, but perhaps it's wishful thinking that I'll even get that far in the article. Though with this in mind, I've assumed I'll go chronologically, but maybe skipping around would be better. Aza24 (talk) 01:06, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
chronologically is obv better than geographically, which makes for tedious reading. My limited experiance with big articles is that its better to nip in at out, here and there, at random sections while establishing a source base, rather mapping it all out in excel and rebuilding from scratch. Ceoil (talk) 01:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. What I'm imagining is having bigger "Prehistoric" "Ancient" "Post-classical" (can't say "Medeival", because the term usually just means Western music from that time), then maybe something like "Early modern"/"Modern"/"Contemporary" (might end up being 20th and 21st century as well/instead). But it may be weird to include music of the Tang and Song dynasties in the same section as Byzantine and Western medieval music... Aza24 (talk) 01:20, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Good approach. I suspect that most will want to read about the evolution of music, rather than specific bits and pieces along the way. Also, most who would click on such a page already know the broad thrust of the various timelines, but will be baffled by the pre late-medieval. I understand that appreciation and a desire to create music is innate in all human societies, but why, what does it do, why has it always been there? The hell did it sound like before Gregorian chanting? Most of the readership will focus on "Prehistoric" & "Ancient", as you outlay. Ceoil (talk) 01:42, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
That is a very good point! I have a feeling that if I give this article all I've got, its prehistoric and ancient sections will be far better than the actual full articles on the respective subjects. Aza24 (talk) 20:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)


Chamomile, Ehrenbach.jpg

See my talk today, - it's rare that a person is pictured when a dream comes true, and that the picture is shown on the Main page on a meaningful day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Fascinating and first-class work! Aza24 (talk) 19:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Source review query[edit]

Hi Aza24, hope you are well. A little while ago, you were kind enough to do a source review at my FLC for List of Billboard number-one country songs of 1955. I was wondering if you might have the time to do the same for List of Billboard number-one country songs of 2019? Not to worry if not, but if you did have a few minutes spare it would be very much appreciated :-) Thanks! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:11, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Hey Chris, happy to take a look—will do so in a few hours at the latest. Aza24 (talk) 20:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to do the review :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:22, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

List of plant genera named for people (D–J)[edit]

Sorry, I may have given the wrong impression ... the nomination for this one is two months old and has 3 supports and no outstanding issues, but needs a source review, if you can spare the time. You did the one for List of plant genera named for people (A–C), and I made your requested changes in this one as well ... except that I removed the page ranges from the references section, per Sturmvogel's request (but I can put them back in if you want). If there's any work I can do to make this easier, let me know. I'm still working on getting a genus named for you :) - Dank (push to talk) 22:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes definitely, I'll have at it in a few hours at the latest. Indeed I wasn't sure as to whether you were persisting with the list (I saw your deleted talk page messages) but am glad to see that you are. Aza24 (talk) 20:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Shoot for the Stars FAC[edit]

Daisy, Ehrenbach.jpg

This FAC is the second try of a user whose first was archived for lack of interest. Can I interest you, - remembering the good comments in my recent FAC? Different music from what we normally do, but I believe looking at other creative work can be good for us, + heartbreaking story. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:34, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, different music indeed but still the same realm of art. I'll take a look this weekend. Aza24 (talk) 23:36, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
That's great! Thank you for beginning the PR for my song of defiance, - I will have to deal with Friederike Mayröcker who died yesterday, + create an article to be linked from the Main page tomorrow, - no rush with that one ;) - don't be surprised about no response, and perhaps deal with the other first? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:21, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Yeah I'll go through the FAC one first—sorry for the delay, I keep getting distracted. Hopefully tomorrow. Aza24 (talk) 09:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)


Hi. Thanks for leaving comments and notifying issues in Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of international cricket centuries at the Sher-e-Bangla National Cricket Stadium/archive1. I have fixed the issues of sourcing on the article. Please check if it is right now or not. And please give a Support if you find no other issues from your point of view. Thanks.  A.A Prinon  Leave a dialogue 06:02, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Have I done something wrong to offend you? Haven't got reply yet from you.  A.A Prinon  Leave a dialogue 08:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
@A.A Prinon: no certainly not, you have been most courteous. I've been merely distracted by other things, am looking now. Aza24 (talk) 22:27, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Request for FAC source review[edit]

Hello. I hope you are having a great week so far. Apologies for this super random message and request. I was wondering if you could possibly provide a source review for my current FAC. It is a rather short article so hopefully, it will not take too much time, but I completely understand if you are too busy or would just prefer to not do it. It has been several months since my last FAC and while that is not a long period of time, it still feels a little weird to jump back into that for some reason. Anyway, I hope you are doing well! Aoba47 (talk) 04:10, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your message Aoba—I'm doing well thanks, hope you are as well. Always happy to look at one of yours—expect a review tomorrow. Aza24 (talk) 09:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you! I am glad you are doing well. Aoba47 (talk) 18:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
@Aoba47: Sorry to intrude, but I have to let you know that, while I was posting on Aza's talk yesterday, I came across this entry and clicked to see your user page. I can't tell you how helpful you have been: First, the FL on Charmed novels taught me a handful of Wikitable details I hadn't yet learned (they've now been incorporated into the proto-FLC I'm playing in the sand with), especially the {{abbr}} and row numbering ! scope="row" |1. Second, I loved the layout and style of your user pages, and have begun copying them for my own! Happy editing! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 21:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
No need to apologies. Thank you for the kind words. I am glad that you enjoyed the Charmed novels list and my user page layouts. It took me a little bit to get the hang of WikiTables so I am glad if I could make it easier for other editors. I hope you are doing well and have a great rest of your week! Aoba47 (talk) 21:48, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
A first class FL indeed. Those tables can really be a pain, I had so much trouble with Carlos Kleiber discography and I still haven't brought it to FLC yet. Aza24 (talk) 05:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Damnit! I shouldn't have looked at the FLC review on that Carlos Kleiber list you made... talk about negative, snarky comments that take the fun out of editing and scare people off! And to think you told me FLC was easier than FAC (which, of course could still well be true, depending on how negative people get in FAC)! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 15:01, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Oh gosh, I wish you hadn't. That almost never happens at FLC, I promise. The user in question had a habit of needlessly badgering and hounding me—he's been banned by the community since. Aza24 (talk) 21:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Sibelius cycles discography[edit]

Hi, Aza! It's getting closer... I'd estimate I'm about 90% finished. Just a bit more text to add to the Precursors section, a few more sources to hunt down, and the hunt for some better images. Do you think it looks FLC-ish? Hope you've been well! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 03:57, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Oooo—looking very nice. I would still mention the 8th somewhere—maybe just in a note. You might want to sort some of the "?" values (especially the runtimes, I would think) by "zzzz" so they appear at the bottom when sorted. Another note would be that there may be a little ref overkill, particularly after "concert repertoire" and "as a programmatic choral symphony"—I would either bundle them or just keep 2–3 of the best ones of the bunch. Aza24 (talk) 09:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Hi, Aza! "Oooo" can go a few ways, interpretively... but, because I need a win today, I'm going to assume it means "Great job! Looking quite FLC-ish!" :) I will add the footnote about the Eighth, as well as do the zzzz sorting (however, I'll be damned if I don't get the ? marks converted to information!!!) I understand on the ref overkill thing. I was putting so many because they're the two most controversial claims in the document and I wanted to kill reviewers with kindness (which is what I consider sourcing to be)... haha. I've never heard of a ref bundle. Do you have a link? One final thing: I don't know people over at WikiMedia. Do you? If so, I'm quite in need of a photo assistant! Silence of Järvenpää (talk) 21:29, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, you assume correctly :) — I totally get your rationale there, I've done the same before. The easiest way is to convert the sfn for the refs you're bundling to "harvnb" (the same formatting, just switch delete sfn and write harvnb) and then surrounding all of those refs with <ref> & </ref> (so like <ref>{{harvnb|Author|Year}}{{harvnb|Author|Year}}etc.</ref> and you should be good. Aza24 (talk) 05:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

New message from 25 Cents FC[edit]

Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Aza24. You have new messages at 25 Cents FC's talk page.
Message added 08:58, 10 June 2021 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I have responded. 25 CENTS VICTORIOUS ☣✅ 08:58, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, have responded there. Aza24 (talk) 09:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)