Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

Jump to navigation Jump to search

Zarcademan123456[edit]

Zarcademan123456 blocked for the maximum one year. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:05, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Zarcademan123456[edit]

User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Huldra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 21:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
User against whom enforcement is requested
Zarcademan123456 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced
WP:A/I/PIA
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
  1. 4:52, 3 November 2020 Topic-ban-violation on Al-Jiftlik: After that, I told him 20:22, 3 November 2020 "AFAIK, you are still topic-banned from the I/P-area, so how come you thinks it is ok to do edits like this? Please undo, or risk a report to WP:AE". He never answered me, nor did he undo his edit.
  2. 18:34, 15 November 2020: Changed "Israeli-occupied Jerusalem" to " East Jerusalem" on Givat HaMatos-article.
Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
  1. 19:03, 27 August 2020 topic-ban (from Palestine-Israel articles) was extended to indefinitely, after this discussion
If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
  • Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above.
Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Diffs says it all, Huldra (talk) 21:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


Discussion concerning Zarcademan123456[edit]

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Zarcademan123456[edit]

Statement by (username)[edit]

Result concerning Zarcademan123456[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • This looks like very clear repeated breaches of a topic ban. It could be met either with an AE block for up to one year or with a normal indefinite block. I suggest that the repeated nature of the breaches and the failure to respond to recent warnings would indicate a one-year AE block might be appropriate. Thoughts? --RexxS (talk) 22:58, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
  • The topic ban notice and 1 September 2020 two-week block for breaching it are as clear as possible. I agree with RexxS that a one-year AE block is required, noting that the indefinite topic ban will still apply. Johnuniq (talk) 01:59, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I blocked for 1 year --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:49, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Bus stop[edit]

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user
Bus stop (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Sanction being appealed
Topic ban from the American politics topic area, imposed at User talk:Bus stop#Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement topic ban as a result of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1052#User:Bus stop bludgeoning discussion at Talk:Parler, logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log#American politics 2
Administrator imposing the sanction
Bishonen (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Notification of that administrator
The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Bus stop[edit]

I am requesting a review of my topic ban. Some information on that can be found here. I've already requested a review of my topic ban here. The ANI thread is here. My commitment of course is not to WP:BLUDGEON in the future. If this is the wrong place to be posting this or if I've posted this improperly, please bring this to my attention. Bus stop (talk) 02:27, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what the proper procedure here is. But GorillaWarfare is asking if "they genuinely can't see their own behavior for what it is". I am admitting to the charge of WP:BLUDGEON. Therefore I am seeing the reason for the topic ban for "what it is". There are a multitude of points on a political spectrum represented by the editors here. Disagreement is hardly out of the ordinary. But overaggressiveness is not welcome. I apologize for my repetitiveness and vociferousness and I commit to more moderate speech. Thank you for the adjustment to the way I formatted this, GorillaWarfare, and I am now notifying Bishonen. Bus stop (talk) 03:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Mandruss—how am I making myself "seem the aggrieved party"? By admitting wrongdoing? I participated in an overly aggressive way at Talk:Parler and I am committed to not participating in an overly aggressive way in the future at any article's Talk page. This I am stating sincerely. I don't know why you are referring to anything I have said as "boilerplate". I can't state what I am stating more clearly. Bus stop (talk) 04:28, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I am responding to you, Mandruss, as opposed to debating you. I am simply saying I did not present myself as "the aggrieved party". Bus stop (talk) 04:42, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Mandruss—it would not be "obtuse" of me to point out that just because you perceive something as "boilerplate" that it actually is "boilerplate". Bus stop (talk) 05:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
JzG—your input is over the top. It is too much of a bother to track down your offenses. You've said "These are prominent radical right figures whose response to protests over the killing of Black people is to downplay them, the "all lives matter" approach." That is found here. You are an administrator? You wrote ""If black lives mattered to Black Lives Matter, they would be protesting outside of Planned Parenthood" casts BLM in the light of the hyper-privileged mindset of anti-abortion activism." Same page. "To place anti-abortionism, as Kirk does, above the murder of Black Americans by police, is grotesque. Kirk opposes the death penalty but only because it is more expensive than life in prison. He doesn't seem to care very much about non-privileged lives." Same page. You are not cognizant this is an encyclopedia. You refer to Andy Ngo as a "neo-fascist apologist"[1]. What? You should be banned before I am banned. Bus stop (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Starship.paint—does it not occur to you that administrators, some of them, are part of the problem? I cannot be trusted but an administrator using this platform, combined with their authority, to launch verbal diarrhea such as references to "the hyper-privileged mindset of anti-abortion activism"[2] can be trusted? I fail to understand that. I am saying "I commit to no more bludgeoning". That is plain English. As Boing! said Zebedee correctly points out, I have said it before. I am saying it now. The English language does not change, at least not in this short amount of time. Is JzG even addressing their association of "anti-abortion activism" with "hyper-privilege", which sounds suspiciously like white privilege? JzG is an administrator who needs their wings clipped. Bus stop (talk) 14:42, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I actually was not keenly cognizant of WP:NOTTHEM, Black Kite. I may have seen it before but I'm not sure. I vociferously and repeatedly argued a point at the Parler article. And I am conceding that. Administrators are not above doing the same. Why aren't problematic administrators challenged as to the propriety of their everyday pronouncements? A problem that I am pointing out is problematic administrators. That should not be overlooked. That is too serious a problem to be glossed over. Nor is this an excuse for my everyday pronouncements. I vociferously and repeatedly argued a point at the Parler article. Should I have done that? No. I was wrong. I was wrong. I apologize. I apologize. I'm being repetitive. I'm being repetitive. I'm being vociferous. I'm being vociferous. Mandruss had it right: "boilerplate", but not on my part. I am using English to express points that I genuinely think need expressing, but what I'm reading here and at other venues is "text (copy) that can be reused in new contexts or applications without significant changes to the original". Another way of putting that is I am speaking to you as a human being and you—not you specifically, Black Kite—are speaking to me like a heartless machine. It isn't too early for me to be requesting this un-ban. The timing is entirely appropriate. This is a request to be un-banned. I am articulating a commitment not to WP:BLUDGEON in the future. I am admitting wrongdoing for BLUDGEONING at Talk Parler. I am not admitting wrongdoing for a ton of other things that my detractors have implied are applicable to me. I'm tempted to repeat that but I'll resist the temptation. Bus stop (talk) 18:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Iridescent—I'm not "venting" when I say or imply that administrators ought to act like they are above the fray. Too many administrators use their enhanced influence to push politically motivated narratives. These concern the usual array of factors including religion and race and ethnicity. There is always an angle. Unless I am describing the curvature of a vase in an art article, I would be in violation of a "post-1932 American politics" topic ban. Yet on the other hand we commonly have administrators—not all, but some—putting their finger on the scale of myriad articles that ultimately impinge upon subjects like religion and race and ethnicity. Is it germane to my un-block request? Yes, I think it is. Bus stop (talk) 20:10, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
The words Did you watch the hearings yesterday in which Ted Cruz grills Jack Dorsey? would definitely fall under the heading of "post-1932 American politics". You are right about that, Iridescent, but I wasn't addressing that. I won't reiterate what I was addressing. You go on to say "Despite what some may claim, Wikipedia welcomes people of all political opinions, but what we don't welcome is people of any persuasion who feel that their personal opinions are objective truth and they're justified in using any means necessary to force them everyone else, and I'm starting to get a strong whiff of that here." I can assure you I don't think my "personal opinions are objective truth". Bus stop (talk) 20:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
As far as a posited "hope everyone else will get tired and let you have your way" that is definitely not the case in fact the opposite is the case—it is I who am "tired" of requesting that I be unblocked. Have it your way. I recognize consensus. Maybe tomorrow if this is still open I will weigh in again. But I have other things to do. You know—in real life? Bus stop (talk) 20:52, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Floquenbeam—you say "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Would that word mean the same thing for an administrator as a non-administrator editor? You might say "yes" but I would say "no". Wikipedia does not need activist administrators. Such administrators are deleterious to the project. Why is GorillaWarfare spearheading the effort to get negative information into the ledes of articles like Parler and BitChute? In my opinion some administrators are a big problem for this project. We are talking about what would be violations of WP:NPOV even if done by non-administrator editors. Let me quote another editor, Adoring nanny, on the Talk page of the Parler article. "Now WP:NPOV is a Pillar of Wikipedia. It should therefore trump mere policies. To the extent that policies allow one to have localized discussions that lead to a highly-visible discussion of antisemitism in the article for Parler, but little-to-no discussion of antisemitism in the above articles (especially the Khamenei article), that shows that the policies are not respecting the pillar, and we have a problem. We need to address it" and in a later post also by Adoring nanny "Here is the point. If Wikipedia talks prominently about antisemitism in the lead of the Parler article but not in the articles I mention above, particularly the Khamenei article, we are looking at an elephant through a microscope and generally have our heads up our proverbial butts. We can have all the policies, sourcing rules, and so forth that we like, and follow them, but what readers notice is the absurdity of the final result.[15][16]." The effort to put "antisemitism" in the lede of the Parler article is being spearheaded by GorillaWarfare. They are initiating the RfC called Should "antisemitism" be removed from the lead? I contend that activist administrators are a problem. I should not be penalized for resisting their efforts to violate WP:NPOV. Bus stop (talk) 09:31, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Bishonen[edit]

Statement by GorillaWarfare[edit]

(Noting that I am the one who opened the ANI discussion that led to the topic ban.) The reviewing administrator(s) need only to look at Bus stop's contribution history since the ban was imposed at 20:23, 17 November 2020 to see why granting this appeal would be a terrible idea. See these edits to the discussion after the ban was placed for a prime example. Bus stop has done nothing since then but continue to discuss their ban, and they have continued the exact same behavior that led to it, repeating the same arguments they were bludgeoning the Talk:Parler page with while simultaneously claiming they have learned their lesson. Several editors, including myself, suggested they should be given some leeway and not be immediately sanctioned for the immediate violations of the tban on ANI and on their talk page, but they have continued to act as though the topic ban does not exist. I think they were somewhat lucky to fly under the radar of more strict administrators who would have sanctioned them for the immediate breaches of the sanction, so I'm amazed to see them bringing this up at AE. I can't tell if they want to be sanctioned and/or sitebanned, or if they genuinely can't see their own behavior for what it is. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:52, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

By the way, Bus stop, I've fixed the format of this appeal, where you'd accidentally used the "request sanction" template. Heads up that you will need to notify Bishonen if you haven't yet. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I am baffled to see Bus stop trying to turn this appeal, in which JzG suggested AP topic ban appeals should be considered early (something that appears to be sympathetic towards Bus stop), into some kind of action against JzG. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:04, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by JzG[edit]

We live in strange times, and strong feelings are spilling over into Wikipedia disputes. This TBan is well supported and makes obvious sense, but we should IMO be looking at early appeals after the dust has settled for any AP2 bans enacted recently and up to Jan 20. Guy (help! - typo?) 09:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Bus Stop neatly displays the source of the problem. Different people can come to different conclusions based on the same facts, the problem comes when you assert, loudly and repeatedly, that there can be no valid interpretation other than your own. In some cases that may be true (there is no world in which being a neo-Nazi is good, for example) but those cases are rare. Wikipedia is mainstream.
If I thought Bus Stop was evil I would have argued for a siteban. I don't. I see him as a passionate individual whose stress levels have probably been escalated by the current timeline. I recognise this feeling: I have PTSD, and 2020 has been the worst year for my symptoms since initial diagnosis and treatment. I think a brief TBan is a good idea. I think an early appeal (after the dust has settled) is also a good idea. It makes sense for us to recognise that we are dealing with unprecedented events and people are reacting to those events in uncharacteristic ways.
We still have to deal with a parallel Truth™-based information ecosystem with which Wikipedia has always struggled, starting with creationism, spreading into climate change denial, and now encompassing pretty much any area where there is a tension between progressive and conservative values. That's independent of the conduct of any individual editor. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:54, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Objective3000[edit]

Bus Stop began with a commitment. Good start, albeit early. But within a half day, took the bait and started veering into WP:NOTTHEM territory. Not a good sign about the ability to maintain that commitment. O3000 (talk) 15:24, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

The applicant is informed that this is not the place to talk about x, and then continues to talk about x. First rule of AE: Don’t manifest the problem at AE. O3000 (talk) 20:34, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by SPECIFICO[edit]

Consider the waste of editor and Admin resources just since GW's complaint. This drives good editors away, thwarts article improvement, and weakens the project. To resolve this, I recommend lifting the TBAN with the understanding that there will be a site ban on the first recurrence of the behavior appellant has now acknowledged. SPECIFICO talk 16:30, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Floq[edit]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:57, 23 November 2020 (UTC)


Statement by Cullen 328[edit]

In my view, it is far too soon for Bus stop to try to appeal this topic ban. I would expect to see at least six months of unproblematic editing in other topic areas. As I see things, Bus stop has been tendentious in the Judaism topic area and in the contemporary art topic area as well. I am concerned that they will be unable to edit without drama for six months, but I sincerely hope that I am wrong. If this editor could just refrain from making the same argument over and over and over again, and digging in their heels, that would be a wonderful step in the right direction. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:58, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 5)[edit]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Bus stop[edit]

  • No way. One need only look at Bus stop's contribution history since the ban was imposed. Knowing that a violation would result in a full ban, Bus Stop went ahead and violated it more than once. Instead of lifting the topic ban, they should be fully banned. -- Valjean (talk) 03:37, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • From my perspective, BLUDGEON is only a part of the problem. There are serious issues of WP:IDHT, WP:REHASH, WP:SATISFY, and more, issues that have persisted for at least six years (that's only my experience and some say it has gone on much longer than that). Bus stop has a particular talent for pushing one to the end of their rope and then imploring them to calm down and be nice, making himself seem the aggrieved party to those unfamiliar with the history. That is not good faith behavior as I see it. I see no evidence that Bus stop truly understands these issues and is capable of addressing them. Even for BLUDGEON, he has offered the absolute minimum of boilerplate appeal, effectively: "I agree not to violate [insert link to the page cited most often in the ban and discussion]". That doesn't adequately demonstrate understanding in my book. Considering that many at ANI preferred a community ban, I think it takes a considerable amount of chutzpah to show up here with an appeal of the lesser AP ban after a mere five days. ―Mandruss  03:47, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
    Bus stop, I did not come here to debate with you, I've done more of that than I care to think about during the past six years, all of it wasted. I made a statement that arbs may completely ignore if they feel I have not been sufficiently responsive to your comments. ―Mandruss  04:34, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
    I am simply saying I did not present myself as "the aggrieved party" - Nor did I say you did here. I was referring to that as part of your long-time pattern of talk page behavior. More IDHT. This is my last comment, no matter what further obtuseness you send in my direction. ―Mandruss  04:52, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Criticizing the administrator that said we should IMO be looking at early appeals was certainly a strategic error - and perhaps a "triggered" one. Of all the ways to appeal a sanction, this appeal was one of the worse ones, considering the post-ban behavior. starship.paint (talk) 11:45, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Q.E.D.. I've never seen anything like this... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:52, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Good sanction - appeal should be no sooner than 6 months, not 6 days. — Ched (talk) 21:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree that (1) the sanction was justified; (2) this is too early to appeal; (3) six months is an appropriate time for an appeal to be allowed; (4) JzG's suggestion should be kept in mind for the future when other sanctions levied during this period of time are appealed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:38, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Bus stop[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
  • Since there was a rough consensus at ANI for some sort of sanction, I do not think it is wise for this to be lifted, by us, so soon without community input. I would be willing to entertain an appeal here after 6 months of issue free editing. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
    • If editors have concerns about JzG's behavior, arbcom is thataway and is more than happy to hear those concerns. I would caution editors that unless the arbs give dispensation, topic bans still need to be followed there. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:55, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Bus stop, the intent of WP:BANEX is to allow you to appeal the topic ban, and not to enable you to use this page as a forum to attack another editor in the topic area (e.g. Special:Diff/990196648) while the topic ban is in place. I recommend declining this request, and concur with Guerillero that your best course of action is to work in less controversial topic areas for a minimum of six months before submitting another appeal. — Newslinger talk 10:20, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • If ever I've seen a deserved topic ban, this is it. It's a textbook example of disruptive behaviour and is exactly what the sanctions policy is for. I also think that not listening to advice to wait six months, but instead going ahead with a premature appeal here, is yet another IDHT example. I would oppose any appeal before six months of constructive work in other areas. (And to show a bit of HT, Bus stop, I think withdrawing this appeal would be a positive step forward). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
    Oh, and on Bus stop's latest promise to stop bludgeoning, see this. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • @Bus stop: Attacking another editor in your ban appeal is certainly an ... interesting ... choice, but I'm sure you've read WP:NOTTHEM at some point and will know that you need to concentrate on arguing why your ban should be lifted, rather than why someone else should be sanctioned. Because that's not going to happen here, and you're not helping yourself by doing so. I'm not sure why you aren't following the advice that's been given to you by multiple experienced editors. Black Kite (talk) 15:56, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Based on Bus Stop's repeated and increasingly-long argumentation here, I can only take this promise to stop bludgeoning with a grain of salt. ~Swarm~ {sting} 18:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Speaking as someone not in the US who to the best of my knowledge has never edited an article on American politics other than minor typo fixes, this is absolutely clear cut. The very first link provided by Bus stop, which they presumably feel in some way exonerates them, is a link to them breaking their topic ban in their initial response to being notified of it. (To be clear, I wouldn't recommend taking further action for that—we tend to allow leeway for the fact that sanctioned editors' initial response to the sanctions is often to vent before calming down—but to try to then use it as evidence in an appeal is fairly clear evidence of a disregard for process.) We don't expect every editor to agree with every consensus reached on Wikipedia but we do expect every editor to respect them; if another editor is also causing problems we have mechanisms for reporting that, but "I'm not the only one causing problems" is never going to fly as an appeal. Looking at the three links provided by Bus stop in their appeal ([3], [4], [5]) there's clear evidence that there was a strong consensus in support of an AP2 topic ban at minimum; unless evidence is somehow found that that decision was based on false evidence or that those supporting the topic ban were biased, I don't really see how we could supervote and overturn such a clear consensus. ‑ Iridescent 19:06, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
    If you're seriously claiming—as you appear to be in your reply to me—that Did you watch the hearings yesterday in which Ted Cruz grills Jack Dorsey? isn't "a discussion concerning post-1932 American politics", you're either wilfully misrepresenting the facts, deliberately bludgeoning a discussion in the hope everyone else will get tired and let you have your way, or have such a serious competence issue that you shouldn't be editing Wikipedia, and I very much doubt it's the last of the three. Your response confirms my initial feeling that the topic ban was extraordinarily lenient and you're extremely lucky not to have been banned altogether. Despite what some may claim, Wikipedia welcomes people of all political opinions, but what we don't welcome is people of any persuasion who feel that their personal opinions are objective truth and they're justified in using any means necessary to force them everyone else, and I'm starting to get a strong whiff of that here. ‑ Iridescent 20:30, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • The recent ANI thread included about a dozen experienced editors calling for, or endorsing, a topic ban (as well as a couple of calls for a site ban). The TB was imposed primarily for wp:bludgeoning, and there was a previous 3-month ban from AN for bludgeoning (followed by "I commit to no more bludgeoning). Without some evidence that Bus stop is able to control the behaviour, I don't see any chance of a successful appeal. I'd advise at least six months of bludgeon-free contributions before considering one. --RexxS (talk) 21:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • WP:AE gives admin a lot of wiggle room to deal with problems, however, I don't think we really CAN accept an appeal at this time. There was a sanction, ANI allowed the community to opine on it and there was a rough consensus that a sanction was needed, and that was just a few days ago. We could maybe review that process (which seems to be fine) but it is way too soon to be considering an appeal, and the community as a whole might would take it as a slap in the face if we were to grant an appeal with no real evidence that anything has changed since the sanction was imposed. That said, from a cursory look at the events, the sanction was earned. I would suggest closing with instructions that it can be appealed after a minimum of 6 months. Anything less is overriding the established community consensus, which is not what we are here for. Dennis Brown - 01:54, 24 November 2020 (UTC)