Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 183

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Phoning Germany

See the third sentence at this section of the Germany article. Mobile Safari on my iPad is turning the year range, 919–1024, to a phone number. Putting nowiki tags around it does not solve it. Can this be fixed in the software? It is fine in other browsers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:12, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: so, this appears to be an annoying "feature" of your browser and we probably won't do anything about it wide-spread in reading mode (in vediting mode, this was addressed in phab:T55315). So that leads us to either: (a) ignore this, (b) chose to inject hacks in to the text that will try to break this feature. (b) may have unintended side affects on other things, including indexing - so I'm not loving that idea. — xaosflux Talk 14:28, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Didn't it get reported on this page three or four years ago, and wasn't it traced to a browser extension? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: This behaviour ought(?) to be addressable by adding <meta name="format-detection" content="telephone=no"> to the <head> of Wikipedia pages. I can't see any reason why we'd ever want automatic format detection of telephone numbers, so this ought not to pose an issue. meta format-detection is largely undocumented, and I'm only aware that it works in Safari and Microsoft Edge; that being said, it's a meta tag, so it doesn't do any harm besides a marginal impact on page size to have it in there. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 22:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
On writing this comment, I'd not seen the phab ticket you linked - I can now see this was considered. I'm not sure why it was decided we'd ever want automatic telephone number detection on any language Wikipedia, though. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 22:32, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
What happens if you type 919{{endash}}1024? Should render as 919–1024. Or use {{emdash}} if it's supposed to be an emdash, that's all over my head. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:35, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
@Ivanvector: To a browser just viewing the page contents as rendered by MediaWiki, 919{{endash}}1024 is identical to 919–1024. Using the template would only help with something that was parsing the wikitext, which the browser isn't doing here, because the MediaWiki software already parsed it on the server side. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 22:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Ahh, I misunderstood the problem, I thought it was something to do with the editor. What if we created a template that would render the year range in a <span> that applied the relevant markup? (That's a bit over my head too, I last designed web pages when Geocities was still cutting-edge) Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:45, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
@Ivanvector: That'd be doable, but it would require every instance of a date range–formatted like this to be changed to use that template. It seems to make more sense to me to just make the change sitewide using the meta tag, unless anyone can think of anywhere where such a highlighting functionality would be useful. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 22:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
This would need to be a configuration option and might even need to be done on a per-wiki bases for WMF, since I assume at least Wikivoyage if nowhere else allows phone numbers. I would guess that there are even some Wikipedias that allow/encourage phone numbers. Never mind 3rd parties. --Izno (talk) 23:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
@Izno: I'm surprised there isn't a page for interface admins to add arbitrary data to the <head> element of pages. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 09:08, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
IAdmins are a new user right for which this would be a novel use case, and it's not obvious to me if there are other, er, useful use cases that might tip the investment cost into worth doing. I'm not really sure of the utility of this change even, and I don't know if I would be in favor of opening other attack paths even for trusted users. --Izno (talk) 14:07, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Naypta, i'm surprised that anyone would suggest that ppl without the highest of security clearance or at least subject to codereview before deploy, should be expected to be able to modify the head element of a top 10 website. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:46, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
@TheDJ: without the highest of security clearance - interface admins already have the ability to completely break huge swathes of the site by changing pages in the MediaWiki namespace. They are our most trusted local technical users. For instance, changing sitewide CSS, JS, blacklisting potentially any website from edits, changing the "Create" and "Edit this page" texts, etc - and that's all on top of their standard administrative abilities, like editing the Main Page. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 11:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Naypta, they are, but they also have access to a very specific piece of that head. In the head you can do 10000 things, including configuring of the sandbox in which that JS runs, modifying CSP, frame inclusion etc. We as developers have often said, that the only reason we have editors allowed to modify the JS is mostly historic. Had MediaWiki/Wikipedia been built after 2010 or so there is no way there would ever be sitewide scripts editable by the community in that way. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:56, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
@Redrose64 and Naypta: this was discussed back in phab:T55315 - when it was interfering with visual editor; this appears to be a choice that the manufacturer of that specific browser has made (including not allowing their users to opt-out). Keep in mind, we are not asserting that this is a "phone number" or should be a link (such as by using the tel:// protocol link) - it is solely a client-side feature of that specific browser. No, we can't arbitrarily inject header elements from on-wiki, it would require a software change such as in T55315. We could break this case by injecting things like 0-width spaces in to the text, but that will cause worse problems. As far as the down side of asserting to not use this at all, readers that are currently using this to call actual numbers would have that functionality broken - not sure how many readers might use that? — xaosflux Talk 11:42, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Personally, I can't think of any scenario in which a reader would actively want to click a telephone number off English Wikipedia - not least because we... wouldn't have them in the first place, I would have thought? Indeed, a brief and inexact regex check suggests that there are a very low number of US telephone numbers even on-wiki in the first instance, albeit that I'm only looking at US ones because otherwise it all gets a bit complicated. One supposes you might want it on for pages like List of suicide crisis lines, but I don't know how useful even that would be. Perhaps a magic word could be used to enable it for pages that really need it. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 11:59, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Adding a meta value to the header, or creation of magic words can not be done on-wiki, you would need to request a software change. — xaosflux Talk 12:37, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Xaosflux, readers that are currently using this to call actual numbers would have that functionality broken: I think it's more niche to legitimately have phone numbers on Wikipedia that users might want to call. In which case, we can use the header tag and still make it possible to click the links by wrapping them in <a href="tel:1-408-555-5555">1-408-555-5555</a> [1]. We can create a template to make it a bit neater. I think this would seem like an ideal solution? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
It sounds worthy of reviewing with the devs, feel free to open a feature request on phab. Of course, someone could argue this to that browser maker too. — xaosflux Talk 13:22, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Created T256758. Apple has a long list of user complaints and requests re. Safari and WebKit - I have a feeling they won't be too responsive to fixing this one (anytime soon) :/ ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:35, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Created 213836 in WebKit's Bugzilla as well. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:40, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
"Personally, I can't think of any scenario in which a reader would actively want to click a telephone number off English Wikipedia - not least because we... wouldn't have them in the first place" there's a telephone number, legitimatey, on Wikipedia:Contact us/Press and partnerships, for example. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:11, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: Sure, but so in those edge cases, we can manually link using [tel:blah blah], surely? Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 16:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
@Naypta: Firstly, can you confirm that the proposed fix does not also override such markup? Secondly, please provide a working example. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:38, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: Certainly; here's an example of the link on Press and partnerships as a tel: link. I can confirm that this works with format-detection set in meta to false; the only thing the format-detection tag does is enable or disable the detection process. It certainly wouldn't be able to affect existing protocol links on a page. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 16:42, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I found them, but had to go back much further than I imagined: Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 70#Unusual undo results?; Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 71#Bizarre interaction with Skype; Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 90#Skype problem - processesing "invisible" text; and Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 91#How to remove Skype formatting when it shows up?. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:39, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
This particular case seems to just be Apple being Apple, rather than a Skype extension, unfortunately. I confirmed on my phone which doesn't have the Skype extension. If you have an iDevice you can likely confirm by viewing User:ProcrastinatingReader/sandbox on iOS (probably iPadOS too) Safari. Doesn't happen on macOS Safari. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
@SandyGeorgia: does this work: {{as written|919–1|024}} = 919–1024? Mathglot (talk) 18:58, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
@Mathglot: still a phone. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:11, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
@Mathglot: I wouldn't expect it to work, because the problem that Sandy is experiencing is client-side, their browser acts on the HTML that is served, not on the Wikitext. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Ulcers, too

Here is a new twist, at Ajpolino‘s work on Buruli ulcer, epidemiology section. 2000–5000 is also converting to a phone number (I will write it out instead, removing the endash). If we write it incorrectly, with a hyphen instead of endash, 2000-5000, does same. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:18, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Your current software is broken. Free alternatives are available. Why are you still using it? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:13, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
On some platforms, such as iOS, there are no alternative rendering engines available (all third-party browsers are essentially skins on WebKit). --Ahecht (TALK
) 16:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
From the OP:: "Mobile Safari on my iPad". Here is a link to download Mozilla Firefox for iPad. Firefox does not use WebKit. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:32, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
@Pigsonthewing: Firefox for iOS does use WebKit: It is the first Firefox-branded browser not to use the Gecko layout engine as is used in Firefox for desktop and mobile. Apple's policies require all iOS apps that browse the web to use the built-in WebKit rendering framework and WebKit JavaScript, so using Gecko is not possible. --Ahecht (TALK
) 18:33, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I stand corrected; the device is broken, not the browser. Another reason to void Apple products. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:28, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Preventing phone numbers being automatically linked

Should a <meta> tag be added to all Wikipedia pages to prevent supporting browsers (IE, Edge, Safari) from automatically converting telephone number-like formats to tel: links? Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 11:19, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Support as proposer. For the context of this proposal, see above, and also phab:T256758. For a brief summary: this behaviour is causing number ranges like 919–1024 to be turned into clickable links, as if [tel:919–1024 919–1024] had been written, on newer versions of Internet Explorer, Microsoft Edge and Safari. This behaviour is called format detection, and is designed to help the user easily contact telephone numbers; however, users would never normally be calling telephone numbers off of enwiki, and we have a low number of them in the first instance. Inserting <meta name="format-detection" content="telephone=no"> into the <head> element of Wikipedia pages would prevent this behaviour, without adding a great deal of overhead to our pages; we have a number of similar tags in the <head> at present. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 11:19, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: I don’t know enough of the issues involved to feel qualified to enter an opinion, but thanks to all for attempting to resolve this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:04, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Your search only attempts to identify a limited set of phone numbers. See National conventions for writing telephone numbers. --Izno (talk) 13:43, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
    I observed this above; it all gets a bit complicated when you try and find formats for other telephone numbers. Ironically, that's the very same reason this issue exists in the first instance; it's almost impossible to define an accurate pattern match that encompasses all international telephone numbers, or even a majority of them. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 13:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I oppose. A limited use set of browsers have undesirable behavior. Bugs should be filed against those browsers. Users are also free to select another browser to correct the issue. --Izno (talk) 13:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
    I'm not sure the issue here is actually a bug per se with the browsers; rather, the browsers are doing what they're meant to here, it's just that what they're meant to do isn't useful for Wikipedia. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 13:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
    If the design is bad then Broken As Designed (BAD) is a bug. That limited set of browsers covers a large chunk of users. BTW, I would find that defect even more obtrusive for content outside of wiki.Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 16:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
    Seems to be a browser issue that should be fixed there - especially since this browser is doing this on numbers with en-dashes in them, not just hyphens as traditionally used for this style of phone number. — xaosflux Talk 16:23, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
    It may be that "what they're meant to do isn't useful for Wikipedia", but browsers answer to their users, not to Wikipedia. Put another way: if Safari decides to render all its text upside down, that would not be useful to Wikipedia, but if Safari users like it, then its not our business to interfere. Mathglot (talk) 19:31, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
    @Mathglot: Browsers answer to their users, and we answer to ours. If we have a way of overriding browser functionality, where it's helpful to our users so to do, I am minded to think that we should take advantage of that, irrespective of the decisions that a browser manufacturer may or may not make. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 20:15, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
    @Mathglot: if Safari decides to render all its text upside down, would you then argue that we should invert our text, so it looks right in Safari? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose working around this apparent browser bug/misfeature, especially since the ability to click phone numbers may be useful for some readers and the proposer shows no evidence of investigating whether that feature is useful to some en.WP readers. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:28, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
    @Jonesey95: the proposer shows no evidence of investigating whether that feature is useful to some en.WP readers - we do not, for the most part, have telephone numbers on the English Wikipedia; it is antithetical to our nature as an encyclopedia, for the most part, so to do. We are, after all, not a directory. I explained above the difficulty in programmatically identifying usages of telephone numbers thanks to their varied formats, but I did run a search for US format numbers, which you can find in the original proposal. Furthermore, pages would still be able to manually add tel: links, where exceptions did apply for whatever reason; we're only talking here about disabling automatically adding links, where there's no special markup present. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 23:05, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Why is this here, and not at WP:VPR? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:50, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
    @Redrose64: Because it's a technical discussion that I doubt would be of interest to the majority of people at WP:VPR - discussing the nature of specific meta tags on wiki pages isn't exactly a riveting conversation among techies, never mind among people without technical experience. Please feel free to post a message over there as well though if you think it's apt so to do! Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 20:54, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
    The effect is not a technical issue, though. I think a broader audience would be desirable. isaacl (talk) 18:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support, with the proviso that there be a template to specify that a number is a telephone number. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 22:33, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose – Wikipedia should not get into the business of trying to undo or override what browser designers believe are useful features for their users. Who's to say Safari designers won't recognize the <meta> tag, and make a change to undo its effect, and turn it into a phone number anyway, thus fixing Wikipedia's "fix"? Where does it all end? Is this the start of a new Wikipedia:Browser override features policy page? Mathglot (talk) 19:16, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
    For mobile Safari, the format-detection meta tag is the documented way to turn off telephone number detection provided by Apple for sites who wish to disable the functionality. isaacl (talk) 18:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
    What isaacl said, the whole point of the meta tag is to turn off automatic detection (and require it manually). It's a feature of browsers. I don't see why they would ignore the presence of a tag per a feature they themselves created to allow sites to opt-out. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:56, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
    It's not a fetaure of the web (HTML) standards, which include an agreed method for marking up telephone numbers. Go and tell the browser maker to follow the standards, or at least to lobby to change them. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:16, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support I don't see any harm in doing so, and in addition to blocking mis-identified phone numbers, it could help reduce spam from people trying to insert their phone numbers into articles and drafts (since the numbers would no longer be clickable, it would be less attractive to do so). --Ahecht (TALK
    ) 23:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment I would like to support this proposal, but first since we are a top-10 website, someone official should have a tête-a-tête with Apple developers regarding Safari's behavior. Is this the best way to solve this? Is it a standards-based way to solve it? Is there a movement toward standardization of this? At any rate, I think if we added this as a stopgap now and it works, then we can move the conversation forward about standardization. Elizium23 (talk) 23:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment does anyone know if adding a Zero Width Non-Breaking Space (U+FEFF) or Word Joiner (U+2060) would disrupt this behavior? VanIsaacWScont 20:57, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose It's not our job to work-around this kind of browser bug. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:11, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support - this is a simple solution to an external issue causing accessibility issues for our readers, which means it is our problem. The fix won't impact users of other browsers at all, so why not? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:46, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support - There is no harm in including the meta tag. I doubt Safari's developers will remove the feature, given that there is already a documented way of disabling the functionality (that being the meta tag). - Axisixa T C 01:19, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support I agree completely with what Ivanvector; this is definitely our problem since it affect our readers. Refusing to do something that would improve the encyclopedia with basically no drawbacks does not seem like improving the encyclopedia to me even if someone else ideally should fix it. --Trialpears (talk) 20:06, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support Rarely are real phone numbers posted on Wikipedia and usually they are scams and spam and quicly removed so this is unlike to effect readers and might benefit readers into being allowed to click on links to numbers going to actual articles and not call some random number 🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 (talk) 10:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-30

19:13, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Template:POTD Wikipedia


Its not being transcluded preoperly. I have already reported it at WP:ERRORS, but not sure it is being watched by many people. So posting here just in case. Regards, —usernamekiran (talk) 20:09, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

KML file generation

A reader contacted Wikimedia noting that the download of KML files doesn't appear to be working at the moment although it did a week ago. I tried the link on National Register of Historic Places listings in Sacramento County, California. The link generated a KML file but it had the following contents:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<kml xmlns="">
    <name><![CDATA[National Register of Historic Places listings in Sacramento County, California]]></name>
        <name>No geocoded items found</name>

Any thoughts?--S Philbrick(Talk) 22:01, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Pinging the listed maintainers: @Dvorapa and Para: --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 22:54, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
A reader has contacted OTRS to say that they are having similar issues with OpenStreetMap: clicking 'Map all coordinates using OpenStreetMap' gives a Google Earth return of 'sorry, no data to show'. I can replicate this on California_Historical_Landmarks_in_Kings_County. Best, Darren-M talk 07:34, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
KMLexport tool have used old Geohack urls (, which were replaced by I fixed the issue, please confirm everything is ok now. --Dvorapa (talk) 20:56, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Dvorapa,This all looks to be fixed now, thank you! Darren-M talk 08:32, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Dvorapa, Thanks! I reported the good news to the person who contacted us. I always love to deliver good news. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:16, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Tracking tool for deletion discussions

I appreciate having the tool that I've bookmarked. Are there similar tools I can bookmark for WP:TFD and other delete discussions? — Maile (talk) 14:00, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Test cases for modules

The {{documentation}} and {{high use}} templates – just to name a few – make the assumption that test cases are supposed to be in the same namespace as the parent page. This assumption breaks down for Lua Modules as the /testcases page is not handled as Wikitext and we cannot see the output directly.

There are a few ways we can handle this issue, but I think we need to pick one as the fix to be applied to all the templates:

  1. Tell MediaWiki to somehow handle /testcases like it currently does for /docs.
  2. Have the templates to check for the Module namespace and use the Module talk namespace instead.
  3. Keep the current behavior, but write a test framework for Lua code to use. Have people invoke the /testcase module from its documentation page (/testcases/doc) so we can see the output.

--Artoria2e5 🌉 04:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

@Artoria2e5: We have a couple of test frameworks. See WP:Lua#Unit testing. This should be the preferred way to test modules. That few do is mostly a case of having very few Lua programmers. --Izno (talk) 14:40, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
@Izno: Should I generalize the TESTCASES page to also cover modules then? --Artoria2e5 🌉 06:00, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
That seems reasonable, Artoria2e5. --Izno (talk) 14:24, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
@Artoria2e5: Administrators and those with the template editor permissions can change the content model of individual testcases page to wikitext. I don't know of a formal process for requesting content model changes, but you could probably do it with {{TPER}}. ----Ahecht (TALK
) 14:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Table header blocks line

As you scroll down List of heliports in Canada the header row goes with you and is a good thing. However, if you click on Killam (Health Centre) Heliport ([[List of heliports in Canada#324|Killam (Health Centre) Heliport]]) the header row covers up the line you want. Is there any way to stop this or have the header stop a bit further up. On a brighter note there are lots of baby geese around and the are really cute. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 11:34, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

The header row only goes with you if you enabled "Make sure that headers of tables remain in view as long as the table is in view" under "Testing and development" at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets. Issues can be reported at MediaWiki talk:Gadget-StickyTableHeaders.css. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:47, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
PrimeHunter, i still think we should disable this gadget. I've tried pushing this forward with the browser vendors for years now, and it still doesn't work. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:35, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I find the gadget more or less works except with specific basically-non-standard tables (some container div, someone set an overflow auto, etc.). (Notably, the one on the COVID article with cases and deaths.) --Izno (talk) 14:08, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Izno, yeah, but we have a lot of such tables. And ppl keep complaining and looking for a fix. But this test/experiment will not be fixed, so it is just confusing for people. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 15:39, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, this is probably just something we can't do anything about. There are other similar cases especially related to loading Javascript which will cause similar behavior when you jump to an anchor. --Izno (talk) 14:08, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks all. I like the feature and I guess I can live with the minor problem. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 03:44, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Interwiki link problem

Please go to Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/Bangladesh medical cases chart & look at the sidebar, there is no bnwiki (বাংলা), although it is linked with d:Q88284884. Any idea how to fix it? আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 16:22, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Not fixed with either a WP:PURGE or a WP:NULLEDIT. This may be related to #Sidebar language order changed? and #Tech News: 2020-30 (first item under Problems). --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
bnwiki is also missing from the four other languages. It didn't work to remove and restore it at Wikidata. Other examined templates still have bnwiki links. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I noticed another thing, if you use mobile view, then there is bnwiki link but it is broken. --আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 18:16, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Looks like a problem with interwiki bnwiki linking, examples:
w:bn:Template:২০১৯–২০ করোনাভাইরাসের বৈশ্বিক মহামারীর উপাত্ত/বাংলাদেশে চিকিৎসামূলক ঘটনার রেখাচিত্র (works)
[[:w:bn:টেমপ্লেট:২০১৯–২০ করোনাভাইরাসের বৈশ্বিক মহামারীর উপাত্ত/বাংলাদেশে চিকিৎসামূলক ঘটনার রেখাচিত্র]] (doesn't work)
xaosflux Talk 18:21, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
May be there is something in the template that causing it. Other links are working. e.g Template:Infobox film. --আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 18:35, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
phab:T258521 opened. From an IW perspective, the contents of the remote page wouldn't be known (not even if the page actually exists or not). — xaosflux Talk 18:38, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
@আফতাবুজ্জামান: I put a temporary workaround in on our page for now. — xaosflux Talk 18:40, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
This is weird. It doesn't appear to be an interwiki issue because the page name also fails locally:
[[টেমপ্লেট:২০১৯–২০ করোনাভাইরাসের বৈশ্বিক মহামারীর উপাত্ত/বাংলাদেশে চিকিৎসামূলক ঘটনার রেখাচিত্র]]
I don't know Bengali but almost any change to the string will make it work (produce a red link), for example removing the first or last character:
মপ্লেট:২০১৯–২০ করোনাভাইরাসের বৈশ্বিক মহামারীর উপাত্ত/বাংলাদেশে চিকিৎসামূলক ঘটনার রেখাচিত্র
টেমপ্লেট:২০১৯–২০ করোনাভাইরাসের বৈশ্বিক মহামারীর উপাত্ত/বাংলাদেশে চিকিৎসামূলক ঘটনার রেখাচিত্
About the only change I found which didn't work was removing the first space or first two spaces:
[[টেমপ্লেট:২০১৯–২০করোনাভাইরাসের বৈশ্বিক মহামারীর উপাত্ত/বাংলাদেশে চিকিৎসামূলক ঘটনার রেখাচিত্র]]
[[টেমপ্লেট:২০১৯–২০করোনাভাইরাসেরবৈশ্বিক মহামারীর উপাত্ত/বাংলাদেশে চিকিৎসামূলক ঘটনার রেখাচিত্র]]
It starts working if the third space is also removed:
টেমপ্লেট:২০১৯–২০করোনাভাইরাসেরবৈশ্বিকমহামারীর উপাত্ত/বাংলাদেশে চিকিৎসামূলক ঘটনার রেখাচিত্র
PrimeHunter (talk) 19:15, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Updated the phab ticket, as this suggests a parser issue now. — xaosflux Talk 19:50, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Same problem also here on enwiki. [[Template:Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test]] --আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 21:48, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Hmmm, OK so this seems to be a mw:Page title size limitations issue - (bn characters require more bytes/character to store then English FWIW) - and the string just happens to be right at the limit, with the interwiki link putting it over. So for a quick fix: @আফতাবুজ্জামান: rename the page on bnwiki to a shorter title. If this can be fixed via the parser somehow it likely won't be a quick fix. — xaosflux Talk 02:02, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
The interwiki prefix itself is not counted in the length limit but it causes a namespace to be counted. I made some tests at User:PrimeHunter/Page name size in interwiki links. Summary: Page names can be at most 255 bytes excluding the namespace. But namespaces are not subtracted from the length in interwiki links so an interwiki link can currently be at most 255 bytes including the namespace. This means some valid pages outside mainspace cannot be linked in interwiki links. PrimeHunter (talk) 07:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

New account nagged

A long-term IP user, who recently signed up for an account, complains on Reddit that they cannot dismiss the "Help improve Wikipedia" banner. Why did the "no thanks, maybe later" link not prevent it from being repeated? how can such banner be dismissed, without using the user script or CSS work-arounds suggested in that discussion? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Pinging @Trizek (WMF):, who I think (?) is the liaison for this thing. --Yair rand (talk) 19:44, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
@Yair rand, thank you for the ping. @Pigsonthewing, this is an old feature available on a few wikis, including English Wikipedia. I reported this bug.
The Growth team currently works on some different and unrelated features to welcome newcomers. If these features are deployed on English Wikipedia, the old "Help improve Wikipedia" banner would be removed. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 09:28, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Play media won't play on my device

Videos l downloaded from today's featured video on the home page won't play on my device. Secondly all the videos l downloaded from common won't play. In fact it is a general problem. I can't even watch it online. What is the cause? The play media (videos) should be sensitive to all devices. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

What device are you using? Ed6767 talk! 17:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

It is not about what device that person is using it is about it's inability to play on JAVA or ANDROID smart phones — Preceding unsigned comment added by Regina Obilo (talkcontribs) 20:54, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Regina Obilo, c:Commons:Media help/Android says that Android phones can play most videos from Commons. There's a link on that page to ask for help, if anyone's encountering problems. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Automatically determining timestamp and editor from diff?

Are there tools one can use on a talk page to automatically derive timestamp and editor from the url of a diff? That is, I’d like to write something like At [name of tool 1]<url of diff>, [name of tool 2]<url of diff> and have it generate something of the form At 01:02, 17 July 2020, UserName.

For context and motivation, see the table at the bottom of this discussion — such tools could be used to complete the 'Editor' and 'Diff' fields. thx, Humanengr (talk) 03:57, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

This sounds like one of those questions whose answer will invoke the API. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:01, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Edit screen freezing

This is a problem I've never had before. It could of course be my computer but so far it's only happening when I'm editing a wikipedia article. Maybe that could be because it's always the first tab I open in Chrome, but it does happen on other tabs as well - but only with Wikipedia. Just the past few days, I sometimes find that I'll start editing and suddenly the screen freezes and I can't do anything at all. The Task Manager shows that the screen is unresponsive and usually it doesn't come back and I have to escape and start again. This started 4-5 days ago and has happened a couple of times a day since then. Deb (talk) 06:49, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Deb, interesting - have you done a quick anti-virus scan on your computer (if you're in Windows 10, use "Windows Defender") and made sure there are no extensions in Chrome that could be causing it to crash? Usually in most modern browsers when a page crashes, it should just crash that tab and very rarely crash the entire browser. Ed6767 talk! 10:41, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
The anti-virus scan doesn't throw up anything. It does only crash the one tab, but at first I thought it was only the far-left tab - but it's actually any tab where I'm using Wikipedia. That could be coincidence of course. Deb (talk) 12:04, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I have been having some similar issues with Windows 10 recently. It sounds like that is your operating system from your mention of the task manager. I took a look around and didn't see anything about recent instability, so it's possible that my computer is getting old too. :) --Izno (talk) 14:12, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I do have a general recommendation that you try remaining logged out or removing your gadgets and scripts for a day or two to see if you can reproduce without All The Extras. Then you can reintroduce them slowly to see if one is particularly causing the issue. --Izno (talk) 14:19, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Deb, it might be easier to try mw:safemode than to log out. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:07, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Is there a way to make an edit link jump directly to a named section?

I'm currently collaborating on a new template, {{Citations broken from PEIS limit}}, where, as a short-term solution to improperly rendering citations, the template invites users to open the visual editor to view the references. So far I've managed to get it to open the visual editor with the code [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|veaction=edit}} view this article in the visual editor]. Is there a way to get the link to jump to the "References" section when it is clicked? I tried [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}#References|veaction=edit}} view this article in the visual editor] but that didn't appear to work.

Input is most appreciated. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:16, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Anchors belong at the end so it would be |veaction=edit#References. But it fails for me because VisualEditor jumps to the top after loading. veaction=edit#References temporarily goes to References but then moves to the top. {{Citations broken from PEIS limit}} has several issues. It can be misleading to claim that references can be seen in the visual editor. VisualEditor apparently counts template transclusions a little differently and in my tests it displays more before stopping template expansions. The difference may or may not mean that more references are displayed. I don't think we should encourage readers to start VisualEditor for this. The point of the template limit is to reduce server load. Getting random readers to click a server intensive VisualEditor link goes against that. And they probably shouldn't be served an edit page without wanting to edit. PrimeHunter (talk) 06:53, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
WarGames:_Defcon_1 works (random page), but then you need to know the number of the reference section.--Snaevar (talk) 09:49, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
...but yeah, I agree with PrimeHunter, this should not be hacked. It would be smarter to look at the pages in the tracking category and see what can be done performance wise there (sometimes there is nothing that can be done, tho).--Snaevar (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
So, these are the performance issues in the PIES limit tracking category, articles only:
The way I see this, as the creator of the template, is that this is a temporary, stopgap measure to both alert editors to fix the problem and provide a rough solution if readers feel that looking at a specific reference is extremely important. Zoozaz1 (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Expert assistance needed

Seeking a wiki markup expert to assist with a coding challenge. The COVID-19 pandemic topic is running into PEIS issues, which among other problems is causing citation display errors. The solution we'd like to try building is to construct the COVID-19 pandemic data template such that it can be transcluded in full as it is today into COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory and also transcluded in part into the pandemic topic. When transcluded into the pandemic topic, it should appear like this mockup without the last column and with all references replaced with a notice. User:Tenryuu has tried a few approaches but none have worked perfectly thus far. - Wikmoz (talk) 21:31, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

One possible solution is to make the template into a mainspace article page so that we can direct users there to view all references. This would allow us to use the standard includeonly and noinclude markup to handle adding/hiding content. I set up a mockup here. Ongoing discussion here. - Wikmoz (talk) 07:13, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Agree. It would be much more practical to remove {{COVID-19 pandemic data}} from the article and let it exist as a "real" article - it has about a third of the references and would benefit from not being squeezed into a fixed size box. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 08:20, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
GhostInTheMachine, can you chime in on the proposed solution discussion here? - Wikmoz (talk) 21:02, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Green tickY Replied there. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 22:37, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Update: Wikmoz implemented a different solution than the one mentioned above that is currently working on the page. To all editors that contributed to this discussion, thank you very much. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:41, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Amount of content added/subtracted

Hello good people. We have WP:EDITS which is nice, but I wonder if we could knock up a list of people who have added content to the encyclopedia, i.e. bytes added in the main space. I'm not really interested in other namespaces (like Talk, Wikipedia talk etc), just curious as to which editors have actually expanded the main project. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think this has any use. Say person x removed 150,000 bytes from a page, and then person y reverted that, they've just been upped 150,000 bytes without adding anything - another issue, for me, is that'd turn things more into quantity over quality, with people inflating their edits with filler to get higher on the list. Ed6767 talk! 19:35, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Notwithstanding that, it can be done, but it's slooooow. Here's the counts for users with names starting "The R", for example. Also doesn't count page deletions/restorations, and will get confused if any part of an edit or the preceding revision has been revdelled or oversighted. —Cryptic 07:03, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
There's a tag for 'Undo' edits, which was created a couple of years ago so that we could filter out some of the reverting. (It'd probably make that query even slower.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
The Rambling Man, I agree with Ed6767: this is unlikely to be of any use. Someone might add 10,000 characters to an article, half of which is deleted as WP:OR, whilst another person adds a well-written, well-sourced sentence or two. If they're also the ones who deleted the OR, their 'balance' may appear to be negative, though their editing was far more helpful. If you still want to have a go at it, you might ask the people at Wikiscan if they have any suggestions. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Whether or not you personally think it would be useful, I would find it interesting. My question is really to ask if it's technically feasible and if so, how difficult would it be. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:27, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

List of tallest buildings in New York City

Something happened on the mobile version of the page, where I can only see "history" and "tallest buildings" sections. All the sub sections in " tallest buildings" aren't easily expandable like on other pages. CTF83! 02:44, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

There was an unclosed div tag. Is it better now? – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
@Jonesey95: yes! Thank you! CTF83! 16:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Refused to connect

I pressed the sleep button on my HP computer which uses Windows 10 and Microsoft Edge, the latest version which was imposed on me without my permission. When I got back on the computer, where I had been looking at a Wikipedia article just prior to pressing the sleep button (actually, I did a McAfee VirusScan which lasted several hours and then did this). I should have copied the message but it just kept appearing when I would click on "Refresh". I don't even know how I got back into Wikipedia.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:16, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Vchimpanzee, sorry, I'm not clear on what your question is. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 18:28, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
I didn't think to copy the error message but I had trouble getting into Wikipedia when I got back on the computer.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 18:31, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Vchimpanzee, to clarify, where did you see this error? On Wikipedia or the antivirus? Your query wasn't very clear Ed6767 talk! 19:20, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
I was looking at a Wikipedia article and pressed the sleep button instead of the off button so I would get Wikipedia back the next day, but that was actually after the virus scan. I don't know whether the hours that the virus scan took made any difference, but I added that just in case it did.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 19:44, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Vchimpanzee, when you put your computer in sleep mode, it terminates pretty much all active network connections and puts your computer in a low-power state. When you woke up your computer, my guess is that Wikipedia tried to refresh your account tokens (basically digital keys to your account that expire) but couldn't connect to the servers as your computer was still reconnecting to the internet (hence the "refused to connect") message. It should be only a temporary issue and as far as I can tell, it's part of normal operations. Let us know if you need any further help :) Ed6767 talk! 19:48, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
I didn't notice a problem on any of the other web sites. However, my computer is really really slow to do anything when turned on.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 19:52, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I want to watch play media and also do downloading of videos

Play media won't play on smart phones why? I tried playing the videos I downloaded on JAVA phone and even ANDROID phone but l get the message "you can't play this track ". What is the problem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Regina Obilo (talkcontribs) 21:20, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Videos do not play

Why is it that videos downloaded from Wikipedia do not play on Android (google) phone or java phone. I not tried it on other brands. The brands mentioned above are digital phones also. Wikipedia be sensitive to all devices /phone brands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Cat searches

How do I search every page (with one search) in Category:Lists of plant species for particular words? - Dank (push to talk) 22:24, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Dank, try this! --Trialpears (talk) 22:32, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Perfect, thanks. - Dank (push to talk) 22:38, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Querying user rights

See Wikipedia talk:Proposed deletion#RfC on limiting PROD to CONFIRMED editors. Is there a way for a template to check whether a user is confirmed? Aymatth2 (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@Aymatth2: Through a template, not in a way that it'll show up to other editors. A Lua module has no way of accessing that information. A template can use the sysop-show-type CSS classes, but that's about the user who's looking at the page, not the user who put the template on the page. It'd have to be a bot that did it if you wanted it to work that way. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 16:13, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
As far as I know, yes, an edit filter that would restrict the use of prod templates to confirmed users would be fairly trivial to implement Ed6767 talk! 16:14, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Ed6767, an edit filter is different to what's being discussed here. There's greater detail over at the linked RfC, but basically what's being asked for (if I understand correctly) is a way for the template {{Proposed deletion}} to detect the user rights of the user that places it, and to modify itself appropriately. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 16:44, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Naypta, hmm, probably not then, unless a bot does it Ed6767 talk! 16:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Ed has already given the alternatives. This cannot be done in wikitext. --Izno (talk) 16:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
  • @Ed6767: I was thinking of something like {{subst:REVISIONUSER}} to pick up the userid, which the always-substituted {{Proposed deletion}} does already and passes to {{Proposed deletion/dated}}. The rights are available on a page like Special:UserRights/Aymatth2. I can transclude any normal page and check for a text string.
    • {{#invoke:String|sub|{{User:Aymatth2}}|55|81}} renders [Image:Aymatth2.JPG|thumb]]
    • {{#invoke:String|find|{{User:Aymatth2}}|change?}} renders 130. The page contains the string "change?" at position 75
    • But {{#invoke:String|sub|{{Special:UserRights/Aymatth2}}|1|31}} just renders [[:Special:UserRights/Aymatth2]. I cannot get the page and pick out the string "confirmed".
Sigh. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Aymatth2, we can't transclude special pages as they are generated by the MediaWiki software when they are visited, along with them potentially having additional features, like on Special:RecentChanges. A bot would probably be the only way to go at this point in time. Ed6767 talk! 20:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
I suppose I have to accept that. A PROD template could be saved in limbo status, then the bot would check the nominator user rights and assign to either suggested (for non-confirmed users) or proposed (for confirmed users). Too bad it could not be done when the change is saved. Thanks, Aymatth2 (talk) 21:02, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
@Ed6767: Some Special pages can be transcluded in fact, like Special:Prefixindex/User:Izno and Special:Recentchanges. UserRights happens not to be one of those pages, likely because no-one had a use case for it. --Izno (talk) 21:06, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
I can see value in first putting MediaWiki results into wiki markup format, which could be transcluded, then converting that into HTML in the normal way, rather than going direct to HTML. But I am sure there are difficulties. When I try using Module:String to extract a substring or find text in Special:Prefixindex/User:Izno and Special:Recentchanges, it does not work. E.g.
  • {{#invoke:String|sub|{{Special:Prefixindex/User:Izno}}|1|26}} renders '"`UNIQ--item-43--QINU`"'
  • {{#invoke:String|sub|{{Special:Prefixindex/User:Izno}}|1|27}} renders the whole page, poorly formatted.
  • {{#invoke:String|find|{{Special:Prefixindex/User:Izno}}|Sandbox}} renders 0
Anyway, the RfC that would use the feature seems to be going nowhere, so it is academic. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:20, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Launching a completed draft when a mainspace redirect is in the way

I have a best practices question, about moving a Draft to mainspace, when a redirect is in the way. This doesn't pose a technical problem, because I have the privileges, I'm just wondering whether it's appropriate. The draft is at Draft:French National Committee, and French National Committee[no redirect] doesn't have an interesting history to preserve, so I imagine I'm in the clear, to just overwrite it.

But what if the redirect history were more interesting, perhaps an earlier article (possibly even a different topic, if subject to disambig issues), then we wouldn't want to overwrite it, right? So, it occurs to me (at this late date), that what one should do at the outset, is rename the interesting redirect to Draft space to work on there, and replace the redirect with a new (uninteresting) one, which can then be overwritten when the new Draft is ready. But what if you didn't notice, until the last minute, that the redirect had an interesting history; does one ask for a WP:HISTMERGE at that point? Wikipedia:Drafts has nothing to say about any of this; perhaps it should? Your feedback would be appreciated. Mathglot (talk) 09:34, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Interesting question. My immediate response is "there's no need to preserve the history, irrespective of how interesting it may be, because that content is no longer published on Wikipedia". If the suggestion is that actually the history might contain useful material for an article elsewhere, moving to draftspace might be best, but it's not like a draft where it's based on the content of a previous article (which would need a histmerge or similar to preserve attribution for legal reasons); there's no licensing reason why such a thing would be necessary in the scenario here.
I suppose if the history did actually contain a complete article, complete enough to (close to?) stand on its own, it could be separately histsplit rather than just draftified as the redirect it was, but I imagine that'd be even rarer. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 09:43, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
@Naypta:, Thanks, I know that there are requirements to preserve history in certain cases—such as when content has been copied or translated from an article (if the redirect was formerly an article, and had been copied from). But I wasn't actually thinking about that case, when I originally posed the question. Mathglot (talk) 09:45, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
If the history in the old redirect needs to be preserved, the usual practice is to move it over some other redirect to the same target with a history that doesn't. —Cryptic 11:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Content translation tool does not work

Hi all, Thanks in advance for helping me. I used the content translation tool to translate articles from English into Persian. The first 2 articles were fine and I had no issues. The 3d one, however, is giving me an odd error: Unable to fetch machine translation token. Here is a screenshot of the error. Does anyone know why it happens or how I can solve it? Thanks once againPoorya0014 (talk) 11:49, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

@Poorya0014: as that is a problem outside the English Wikipedia please report it at phabricator - here is the link to report. Notably, enwiki doesn't have machine translations enabled (TO here) so we have the least experience with that component. — xaosflux Talk 14:23, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
@Poorya0014: I suspect that it might have broke and might need to be reported on the Phabricator you can use Google Translate or copy and paste the text to a article page 🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 (talk) 10:42, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Amire80, can you make sure this has been reported? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:50, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Whatamidoing (WMF), thanks for mentioning.
Poorya0014, thanks for the translations! I've replied in more detail on your talk page. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:41, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): and @Amire80: thank you and yes, just for now, everything seems to be working.Poorya0014 (talk) 03:09, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Search has stopped working

In android, suddenly every attempt to search or read any page fails, message is "an error occurred, go back." But there is no way to go back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:9600:4100:AC1B:34F4:B0A5:F1A8 (talk) 17:07, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not having this issue - could you tell us your app version and Android version? Ed6767 talk! 17:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Android 4.4.2; wikipedia 2.7.50278. I uninstalled wiki and reinstalled, no change. Problem started just a few days ago, and I don't think I had changed anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:9600:4100:AC1B:34F4:B0A5:F1A8 (talk) 17:48, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Can anyone help me build an SQL query?

As part of a new bot job for which I have drafted a proposal (see WT:WikiProject Categories#Proposed_new_BRFA), I would like if possible to make a Quarry query to simplify a few steps of the process.

Unfortunately, I have no SQL skills, so I was hoping that a friendly SQL wizard might be kind enough to help me make a query which adds two extra filters to

  1. list only pages whose title matches the regex \b[Oo]rgani[sz]ations?\b
  2. exclude pages which transclude {{Category redirect}} and/or {{Category disambiguation}}

I have no idea where this lies on the spectrum between trivial and impossible, though I suspect that it's either one or the other. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:58, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Does Special:Search work for you? organisation and organization. (As an aside, that may mean this in the realm of possible for the replicas.) --Izno (talk) 15:09, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, @Izno, but that doesn't work for me for several reasons:
  1. The output is formatted. I need clean, bare listings for further processing.
  2. That method requires multiple searches. I am looking for a single search, to reduce hassle and increase accuracy (each step is a possible human error, so less steps is better)
  3. I'm not clear whether those searches include the plural, or whether I'd need to repeat them for explicitly for the plurals. If I do need to repeat them, then that's 4 searches in all.
So I'd prefer an SQL solution. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:21, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
  1. You can get the search in AWB and then export the list to plain text. (I am pretty sure you can get a plainlist format from the API as well but don't know that direction?)
  2. Single search. I only listed two because I saw a reasonable possibility of timeout.
  3. If you skim the list, yes, it does include plurals.
So I've probably added a step or two but I would guess you were thinking to use AWB in some way anyway. --Izno (talk) 15:26, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
I'll give this a shot. --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 15:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
The straightforward version is at quarry:query/46897. There's less clear ways to do it if that ends up timing out. —Cryptic 15:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
See quarry:query/46895.  Majavah talk · edits 15:39, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Your title match is too wide, though I'll grant that there probably aren't any category pages matching /rgani.ation/ but not /\b[Oo]rgani[sz]ations?\b/. BHG: WP:RAQ is specifically for this sort of question. —Cryptic 15:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Turns out that there actually are, mostly ones including "organizational" or "reorganization" - quarry:query/46898. On the plus side, your query made me realize mine didn't take Mediawiki's munging of spaces into underscores in page titles into account. —Cryptic 16:09, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

However, none of your kind efforts seem to quite do what I want:

  • Izno's combined search looks great, but I can't make it work in AWB. "Wiki search (text)" gives me only 1000 articles, and zero categories. "Wiki search (titles)" gives me no hits at all.
  • Cryptic's quarry:query/46897 gave only 18 hits when I looked at it first. There should be about 15,000 hits. I see it's running again, so may be the second run will work better.
  • Majavah's quarry:query/46895 with 14394 hits looks to be about ballpark correct. But since it's based on a partial regex, I'd still need to filter it, which means it doesn't save any steps. (I agree that false positives are unlikely, but for a bot job I want to keep my error rate at zero).

Thanks again. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:20, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Izno ... [1k pages] Dangit. Limitation of search in AWB. Got me there. --Izno (talk) 16:26, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
After 14 years using AWB, I am still finding wonderful new capabilities which I hadn't previously explored. But then it surprises me by having gaps like that. It would be wonderful to add that sort of extended search. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl: The related ticket is phab:T201178. --Izno (talk) 16:43, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
@Izno, the cap on 1000 hits is indeed related to phab:T201178... but the more serious problem is that what ever the numerical limits, AWB can't execute this query. All of the 1000 hits returned were articles, but I wanted only categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:12, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
@BrownHairedGirl: I didn't parse that sufficiently originally. There are two things to do different: The make list option in AWB you need to use is "Wiki search (text) (all NS)" (I just checked and it looks like either "Wiki search (text)" or "Wiki search (text) (all NS) can indeed be used) and the query needs to be this one, which is category: intitle:/[Oo]rgani[sz]ation/ -hastemplate:"Category redirect" -hastemplate:"Category disambiguation", which will restrict results in the query string itself rather than in the API request (which is my goof). --Izno (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, Izno. That does indeed return the right sort of result. But the limit of 1000 is now the critical problem. 1000 is a pathetically low limit. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:13, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

What happened to the 'latin symbols' editing box?

Howdy. The Latin symbols & other symbols boxes are missing. GoodDay (talk) 16:07, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

At Preferences → Gadgets, have you got "(D)CharInsert: add a toolbar under the edit window for quickly inserting wiki markup and special characters (troubles?)" enabled? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:15, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
That's ok. I see it's been restored :) GoodDay (talk) 23:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Issue with Template:Columns-list

On the article Carmel-by-the-Sea, California in the Notable people section, MediaWiki doesn't seem to be parsing the equals-signs for the "Actors" sub-section. I assume this is related to the use of the Columns-list template. The documentation for this template indicates that equals-signs in the content can cause display issues, and that adding |1= before the content should resolve the issue. However, adding that did not make any difference. Hoping someone with more knowledge than myself can determine if this is fixable. Thanks! –Erakura(talk) 22:38, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done with this edit. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:20, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Long section headers truncate, not wrap

At Special:Permalink/969566271#Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure#Talk:List_of_Fast_N'_Loud_episodes#Split_/_Lynn_Anderson_discography, depending on my browser width, part of the header does not display. For example, at 1275px with 125% scaling (~1600px at normal 100% scale), I get a two-line header with the first line showing Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure#Talk:List_of_Fast_N'_Loud_episo and the second line showing /_Lynn_Anderson_discography. Missing from the middle is des#Split_, which should be rendered at the beginning of the second line, before /_Lynn_Anderson_discography. The narrower I make the window, the more disappears from the middle of the header text. If I select from the beginning of the first line to the end of second line and copy/paste it to a text editor, all of the text is there – it's just not displaying it.

This is on Firefox 77.0.1 on Win10. I tried it in a browser private window (i.e., as a non-logged-in user) and got the same thing.

The problem is a bit worse on Chrome 83.0.4103.116 on Win10; it simply truncates the header where it runs out of room on the screen and doesn't display anything on the second line except the section edit link.

Other long section headers on that page display correctly, e.g., Special:Permalink/969566271#I want to put up an article where one has previously been deleted, which is now a redirect page. Is there anyone I can get approval from to do this?. Any idea what's happening here? Not terribly important I think – really more of an FYI. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 07:02, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

First, they're headings, not headers. Your first example has no spaces in the heading - it uses underscores wherever a space could have been; the second example uses spaces normally. This may be a browser issue: I use an earlier version of Firefox, where they both wrap as expected. I've never seen truncation, but some browsers may add a scrollbar to the bottom of the window instead of wrapping. I would question the necessity for having headings that are of such great length. Your first example duplicates the heading text in the section prose, this time as a link, so the heading could simply have been "List of Fast N' Loud episodes"; your second example could ask its question on the first line of section prose instead of in the heading. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I didn't create the long section headings, nor would I. There are no scrollbars apparent in either browser. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 07:43, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
MediaWiki headings have line-height: 1.3 and overflow: hidden. This clips the content and doesn't give a scrollbar.[6] Long example string with <div style="line-height:1.3; overflow: hidden;">...</div> without a heading:
PrimeHunter (talk) 08:20, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
PrimeHunter, it does this to create a new block formatting context, which makes sure it clears floating items. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:53, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
Setting word-break:break-word on the headings can fix this. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, both. I updated my CSS for headings to word-break:break-word for the pesky headings without breakpoints and overflow-x:auto in case it can't break. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 07:24, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Cookies are not required to switch view modes

I'm on I click on "Mobile view" and now I'm on I click on "Desktop view" and I get an error message (and it's moving! why do they make them so jarring?) saying "cookies are required to switch view modes". Well, that's a lie. Or I wouldn't have gotten into mobile view in the first place *scratches head* (talk) 05:32, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

See mw:How to report a bug. --Malyacko (talk) 05:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Technically yes, it is not entirely true. Cookies are only required in order to REMEMBER to stay on the non-default view. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:24, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Syrian civil war infobox


At some point Template:Syrian civil war infobox became too wide and has been tagged as such. The infobox's history suggests it's been so for at least several months. Could someone more knowledgeable look into the issue and standardize the width? Brandmeistertalk 18:26, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Brandmeister: It looks to me like it's that wide because there's 4 columns of content in it. If it were any narrower, those columns would become almost unreadable. How exactly would you like it to be made narrower? Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
Maybe. But the Lebanese Civil War infobox, for example, also has 4 columns of belligerents, yet has a standard width. The Wars of the Three Kingdoms infobox has even 5 columns, but still manages to be standard. Perhaps the width in this infobox should be manually adjusted? Brandmeistertalk 08:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
The main things that were making it too wide were a fixed 588px size for the main image, and a couple of nowrap templates. I have removed those. The image may be too small now, but its size should probably be set with |upright= instead of a fixed size so that viewers can choose their own size. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

OneClickArchiver...a bug or a glitch?

I was creating an archive page for Talk:List of massacres in the United States. I used OneClickArchiver and it created two Archive pages at the same time - one, the malformed Talk:List of massacres in the United StatesArchive 1 (on which I logged a request for deletion) and two, the standard Talk:List of massacres in the United States/Archive 1. Is this a recurring/known bug or a one-time glitch? See my contributions for timeline. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 15:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I never had this happen before. I just got a notification of a ping, and when I went to the reply it was made in February. Then I realized it was an archive of someone's talk page, archived today by OneClickArchiver.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Munch The Scream lithography.png - Oh good? Looks like it's not just me... Shearonink (talk) 16:46, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I just switched to a different one-click archiving method this morning and when I was done with my talk page, saw that I'd sent 11 notifications. I posted a message on my talk apologizing to anyone who got those pings, and won't be using that method again. Schazjmd (talk) 16:49, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect co-ordinates on svg map

Hello. I am try to put together a svg map in my sandbox at User:The C of E/l but I have noticed that the co-ordinates on the map appear to be incorrect. For example it is putting North Walsham R.F.C. in the middle of East Anglia but Google Maps clearly shows it's at the top of Norfolk. I've put the correct co-ordinates from Google and a postcode co-ordinates tool in but it keeps coming up with the incorrect location. Is it possible if this could be fixed please? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:47, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Fixed it. The background map needs to be the same for all of the points. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

New window problem

Today, on an iPad/Safari (desktop view), when I open a link in a new browser tab, the link opens in the new tab but the tab switches to mobile view and is not logged-in. I am still logged-in in the original tab. This didn't happen yesterday or ever before and I can't think of any change that could account for this. Any ideas? MB 18:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

MB, do you know if Safari has been updated recently? That could be the cause of an issue like this. Ed6767 talk! 18:49, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I have iPad OS v13.5.1 but am being offered 13.6. Has your iPad just updated to 13.6? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 19:45, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I still haven't figured out how to check the version of Safari, but I found the problem - somehow I was indvertently in "private" mode. MB 21:26, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Hashtag in title

There is a space before the hashtag but I still get an orange link for a disambiguation page. I was trying to create a red link. I found another instance where there was a red link when the title was used, and it was a piped link.

At this point I'm concerned about notability so I created a userspace draft, but I need to make the actual title clear and find a way to make any links to that actual title work.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 19:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not possible to create the article at that title. You need to create it at The Greatest AtHome Videos and then maybe use {{Technical reasons}} template to explain why the title does not contain the pound sign. – Ammarpad (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure what question I should be asking for those who try to search for that exact title. Anyway, so far I haven't gotten beyond a press release or quotes from the press release, so I may not be able to get the article to pass notability.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:21, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
It's not possible for that title to redirect. Any other ideas?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:24, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
The Greatest #AtHome Videos is a section link to The Greatest. It's not possible to make a page or redirect with "#" in the name per Wikipedia: Naming conventions (technical restrictions)#Forbidden characters. But if you make an article at The Greatest AtHome Videos then you can use {{Technical reasons}} on The Greatest:
No Wikipedia pages should link to The Greatest #AtHome Videos but users may enter it in the search box. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:43, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Okay, that makes sense. Now, can anyone advise me on whether the draft should be an article so I can actually do all this?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:48, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
We don't make decisions like that here. Please follow the WP:AFC process. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:55, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
It was {{Correct title}} I was looking for.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

WP's in-house citation style

Hi all,

Please forgive this list of questions which has grown as I typed it. Two initial questions of trivial difficulty (asking for a friend), followed by others of much lesser importance but perhaps greater complexity.

1. Using {{cite book}} or any other similar template, is it possible to generate a 100% compliant Chicago Reference-list entry as shown in Author-Date: Sample Citations from the Chicago on-line manual? If so, could someone please show me how? I am aware of all the differences between Chicago and the standard output of {{cite book}}, which I am familiar with. For example,
  • Grazer, Brian, and Charles Fishman. 2015. A Curious Mind: The Secret to a Bigger Life. New York: Simon & Schuster.
  • Thoreau, Henry David. 2016. “Walking.” In The Making of the American Essay, edited by John D’Agata, 167–95. Minneapolis: Graywolf Press.
2. Similarly, is it possible to generate 100% Chicago inline parenthetical refs (Smith, 1997, 345) from a {{cite book}} or other template without the 'p.' abbreviation, where eg {{harv}} and {{sfn}} by default generate something like (Smith 1997, p. 345)?

Other citation queries, mostly to do with curiosity about the inner workings of WP which I don't actually need to know: please ignore for any reason. Recently I've been trying to understand various styles, including CS1 and 2, Chicago Author-Date etc., MLA, APA and so on. It definitely is a can of worms.

For a long time I've used {{sfn}}s with {{cite book}}, journal etc. as my main citation style, along with {{refn}} and {{efn}}, and occasionally a plain <ref>. I've always called it "Harvard-style referencing", although this a bit of a misnomer.

  1. Would it be vaguely correct to describe this as "numbered Harvard-style short footnotes with bibliography"? Is there a WP-specific official description of what this represents, or a page containing all this info all together?
  2. Am I correct in thinking that a very basic description of what goes on could be "The templates {{cite book}} etc. use CS1- and CS2-compliant parameters to generate an entry (CITEREF?) which can be linked with |ref=harv, and which is all formatted by the Wikimedia software to display a WP-specific citation (e.g in the bibliography) and short footnote in the 'correct' format"?
  3. Why does WP:PAREN not actually tell you how to implement Parenthetical referencing using templates?
  4. Could you describe how {{sfn}}s fit into WP:Parenthetical referencing? WP:MOS has almost nothing to say about referencing, apart from that it's down to a consensus for each article. Wikipedia talk:Parenthetical referencing seems to sum up the problem: it's fairly difficult to decide what to even call it. But as I understand it from CS Primer, there is no such thing as an official 'Harvard' style, although a number of UK universities use the Harvard System of Referencing (6th edition).
  5. How far does WP follow this 6th ed. linked above? Help:Citation Style 1 says that "CS1 uses (in addition to Wikipedia's own Manual of Style) elements of The Chicago Manual of Style and the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, with significant adaptations."
  6. Does the above phrase "CS1 uses (in addition..." actually mean "CS1, as implemented on Wikipedia uses (in addition..."
  7. Is there any guide to where the "significant adaptations" are described? Or the decision-making behind them?
  8. Is there a very simple diagram like a company organisation chart or flow chart that shows how all the different WP citation styles and templates fit together? I have found this information very difficult to come by in one compact, concise explanation. Something like Maslow's hierarchy of needs:
  • Citation styles for printed matter, eg Chicago, APA, WP specifications
  • CS1, CS2, which describe the formatting of citations and bibliographies in XML
  • {{cite book}} journal, etc., {{citation}}, {{harv}} etc.
  • {{sfn}}, {{refn}}, plain old ref name=
  • Where does CITEREF fit in?
  • Wikimedia software, parsers, HTML
  • What you seen on the screen

I realise these are whole load of questions which really don't need answering, but I would be very grateful if someone could take the time to point me in the right direction. Cheers, >MinorProphet (talk) 09:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to post this at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical). Can it be answered here or can it be moved, please? Cheers MinorProphet (talk) 09:28, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I would have thought that the best place for this question would have been WT:CITE or WT:CS1; these seem to me to be more style than technical questions.
The first two questions:
  1. no, except perhaps in very simple cases.
  2. yes: {{harv|Smith|1997|loc=345}} → (Smith 1997, 345)
The other questions:
  1. don't know. Not that I know of.
  2. the cs1|2 and harv templates create the format by emitting a mix of wiki and html markup; MediaWiki takes that and renders the final html output and does the reference section formatting under the direction of {{reflist}} or <references />; bibliography lists are constructed by human editors; CITEREF is automatically constructed by all of the cs1|2 templates and is the concatenation of CITEREF, up to four author surnames, the year portion of the date, and an optional disambiguation character; |ref=harv in cs1|2 templates is ignored
  3. don't know; perhaps you should ask that question at WT:PAREN
  4. |sfn= is |harvnb= except that the output is wrapped in a <ref name=>...</ref> tag with the name= attribute value derived from the template's parameters
  5. as far as I know, the {{harv}} and {{sfn}} templates have never strictly adhered to anything
  6. cs1|2 is not Chicago, is not APA, is not any other published style. cs1|2 is an amalgam of bits, pieces, parts, from these and the minds of the multiple individual template writes who independently created the templates that over time were merged together first by using {{citation/core}} and then by using Module:Citation/CS1. cs1|2 is its own styles, not beholden to the style guides from which the initial authors took their inspiration
  7. no. You might troll the talk page archives for the individual templates to see if there is anything to be gleaned there
  8. no
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@Trappist the monk: Wow, that's incredibly kind of you to answer all those queries, and swiftly as well. Thanks for the pointer to WT:CS1 - I always used to forget |ref=harv several years ago, and now that I remember it every time, it seems I don't need to... especially with no .js stuff :)
A final history question, please: is CS1|2 'independent' code which WikiMedia software uses as is, or in some custom implementation - or did the authors of WikiMedia write CS1|2 - in other words, what's the relationship between the two? A brief internet search reveals very little. Thanks for your time and expertise in answering all my queries. MinorProphet (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Independent. cs1|2 were developed at for by editors. There is no 'relationship' with WikiMedia per se; MediaWiki's cite.php does not distinguish citations written using the cs1|2 templates from citations written as plain-text. There are 160-ish wikis that support cs1|2 using some version of Module:Citation/CS1 (they are not all the same – some are heavily customized; some are old; ...).
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:52, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Aha, now I understand, as far as I need. Thanks once again.
MinorProphet (talk) 14:39, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Search for draft articles in mainspace

I have noticed a number of links to draft articles being added in mainspace, especially after a draft has been refused, rather than trying to improve the draft.

I was trying to search for such articles but a search for "[[Draft:" insource:/ [[Draft: / - as shown here - returns " An error has occurred while searching: Regular expression syntax error at 10: expected ']' "

This may just be my poor understanding of the correct syntax, but I suspect the search is designed to refuse such a request because there is no closing ]]

Is there a (simple) way of searching for links to draft articles in mainspace, without knowing what the draft is called? - Arjayay (talk) 14:33, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

This is poor understanding. You need to escape the brackets with \ as they are a special character (review regular expression and/or related material). This is the search I would use. --Izno (talk) 14:40, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Izno for your rapid response - looks like there is some tidying up to do - Arjayay (talk) 14:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
It might be worth working through setting up an edit filter to catch new draft links in the mainspace and/or possibly catching moves out of draft space which include draft links. --Izno (talk) 14:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes Izno, I'll go over there; as you have just seen, there are currently 428 links to draft articles in mainspace - Arjayay (talk) 14:52, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Izno any edit filter would need to be written so it did not stop moves from mainspace to draft, whiooch create a redirect to the draft by default. These are normal, and should be promptly marked for speedy deletion. Otherwise only an admin or page mover could do draftification. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 14:59, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
DESiegel Let's keep the technicalities to WP:EFN#Filter to prevent links to Draft articles being added in mainspace. --Izno (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@Arjayay and Izno: I am currently doing an AWB run to deal with the existing items as found by the above search. Which does not mean that a filter for future items is a bad idea. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 17:01, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Handling paragraphs in a template

Is it possible to have a template (or a module, if not possible with a template) that prepends each paragraph with a specified text? For example, I would like the output of:

{{prepend |1=Paragraph 1

Paragraph 2

Paragraph 3


to be:

  • Paragraph 1
  • Paragraph 2
  • Paragraph 3

Is that possible? Is there a generalized string substitution function available for templates?

The use case here is {{Afc comment}} which as can be seen at {{Afc comment/testcases}} doe snot handle multi-paragraph comments well. Or is the answer just 'don't try to do that"? DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 15:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Discussed at WT:WPAFC. LittlePuppers (talk) 18:27, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


Please do repair: < >.

It sends nothing.

It does make these claims:

You must validate your email address in order to use email features. Click the button below to send a confirmation email to your address. Then, follow the instructions in the email. To check whether you have already confirmed, please see your preferences.

A confirmation code has already been emailed to you; if you recently created your account, you may wish to wait a few minutes for it to arrive before trying to request a new code.

Confirm email address Jump to navigation Jump to search You must validate your email address in order to use email features. Click the button below to send a confirmation email to your address. Then, follow the instructions in the email. To check whether you have already confirmed, please see your preferences. Confirmation email sent.

Meaningless garbage.

Thank You,

Dhsert (talk) 19:30, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I do not know how the webserver got to think that my comment should be above the last one.

I do wonder whether the webserver has gotten confused.

Or, I might have pressed the wrong link or I do not know what.

Thank You,

Dhsert (talk) 19:36, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Dhsert. You are addressing your annoyance to the volunteers who edit Wikipedia. Almost all of the people reading this page have no knowledge or control of the software. Please take this up at VPT. (But have you checked that you have given the correct email address, and have you looked in your spam folder?) --ColinFine (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Paste from teahouse or some house. The spellcheck wants me to say steakhouse, which is different.

I have seen electronic mail spam; zilch.

The edit conflict message confuses me; starting over.

Thank You,

Dhsert (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Copypaste and Category:Copied and pasted articles and sections

On 25 June 2020 I put a {{copypaste}} box on the page George Lycurgus. The template documentation promises that it will then be added to Category:Copied and pasted articles and sections. Yet I do not find it in Category:Copied and pasted articles and sections from June 2020. Did I do something wrong?  --Lambiam 16:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Since |url= is provided, the article is placed in Category:Copied and pasted articles and sections with url provided from June 2020 instead of Category:Copied and pasted articles and sections from June 2020. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:54, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Source of suggested related articles on mobile?

On the mobile version of Wikipedia, when you scroll to the very bottom, there are (normally three) suggested related articles listed. Does anyone know how those are chosen? Whatever algorithm is doing it seems to normally do a good job, but I'm just curious, and there may be other applications for it. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 02:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

mw:Extension:RelatedArticles. --Izno (talk) 02:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
It's just search results, using the 'morelike' feature. mw:Help:Extension:RelatedArticles has the instructions on how to change the list manually, in case anyone needs it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:00, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-31

13:51, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

FYI — To set your timezone for the UTCLiveClock gadget — Find your timezone in the list of timezone names — Add a line to your common.js window.LiveClockTimeZone = 'Europe/London';GhostInTheMachine talk to me 17:57, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Wow, New Vector is even uglier than I was expecting. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 21:16, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
@AntiCompositeNumber: Then use Timeless. CompassOwl (talk to me!) 11:17, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
For anyone who's curious
See this page in Monobook:
See this page in Timeless:
See this page in your account's version of Vector:
(I'm not sure how to set trigger specifically the 'new' Vector or 'legacy' Vector via the URL, but there's probably a way.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Help with a user script

Hello there! I'm working on a small user script (please see the demo video on YouTube). Is there any easy way to use one of the existing Syntax highlighters in this script (for the left side)?. Thank you very much ^_^.--ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 17:10, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

ԱշոտՏՆՂ, maybe it's possible? What are you using for the 'box' on the left? If you opened the mw:2010 wikitext editor instead of a plain textarea box, then you would have all the buttons. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:07, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Whatamidoing (WMF), thanks for your answer. Do you know how can I do it? Maybe there is a snippets of code, documentation or an existing script that uses something like that? I would be very grateful if you could give me some hints.--ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 18:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Can't use visual editor or twinkle on chrome

I'm sure this is a chrome specific issue, seems to work fine on edge. Visual editor just does not show up, neither does twinkle. A bunch of other minor things seem to be different from normal as well. How do I fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Debitpixie (talkcontribs) 19:04, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Debitpixie, do you have Javascript disabled in Chrome? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:21, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
No, but I have an extension called noscript that may have disabled it temporarily. Could that be what caused the issue? Debitpixie 💬 19:00, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Debitpixie, yes. The modern web is built around Javascript, and those features require it. You might want to uninstall the addon, as in the latest version of Chrome you can disable Javascript on a site by site basis through the permissions menu (click the padlock in the top left > site settings > Javascript). Ed6767 talk! 19:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Okay that seems to have solved the issue, thanks for the help! I'll get rid of the extension soon!

Mainspace book links

We currently have over 1,400 templates with links to the book space. Most of these are navboxes and in total these almost certainly result in over 10,000 links to the book space from articles. This is an issue since every page in the namespace has the following notice:

This is clearly not something we should direct readers towards. My proposal to fix this issue would be wrapping every link with {{Book link}}, a template that wouldn't have any output, but could trivially be modified to display the link again if and when there is consensus to bring back the other links suppressed per Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 176#Suppress rendering of Template:Wikipedia books. Does this sound good to everyone? There really isn't anyplace to discuss things related to the book namespace which is why I'm bringing it here. --Trialpears (talk) 19:52, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. –xenotalk 19:58, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
The majority of the uses in navboxes are also typically in some sort of list, which means you will have a hanging hlist mid-dot for such items. I don't think that's desirable. --Izno (talk) 20:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Izno you will have to include a bit more than just the link in most cases such as bullets or {{Icon|Book}}, but I'm not sure that is an issue. Take a look at my sandbox where I removed a typical link from a navbox (located in the below section) using this method and I could successfully restore it with one quick edit at User:Trialpears/sandbox/book link. I could very well be missing something but I think this is technically feasible, at least in most places. --Trialpears (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
You're going to need to be more clear about what you expect the outcome to be if I have a structure like the below:
If you should hide the book link with a naive implementation, that looks like this:
--Izno (talk) 21:17, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
The outcome would be
Using css to hide the link won't work everywhere since it would still be part of the html and would leave artifacts behind, however a template with no output would not affect the finished page since the parser would ignore it completely. As I said some adjacent material will often have to be hidden as well such as bullets or {{Icon|Book}} but I don't see any issue with that other than it being a bit complicated. I've dealt with significantly worse at WP:TFDH however so I'm sure that deployment will go smoothly. --Trialpears (talk) 21:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
() The problem you run into with that implementation is that then there may be links coming after the book link as in
Which misses on WP:LISTGAP concerns. --Izno (talk) 21:31, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
You will have to be very careful with the whitespace around the template but here is an example of both the on and of version for your example. ({{P1}} is equal to {{{1}}} which is what {{Book link}} would transclude if links were reenabled).
--Trialpears (talk) 21:51, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Assuming that we're able to find a way to handle the issues above, this seems reasonable to me, too. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 06:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
  • This has been stale for a week now and was even archived. I will consider this a consensus to implement if Izno doesn't have any more objections. --Trialpears (talk) 09:07, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I actually will oppose. The suggested implementation requires just a fair too much nitpicking in templates meant for easy consumption by the majority of people to be accessible for readers. We've gone some few years with this service being down; I don't feel uncomfortable going a few years more. If we really think it's going to be the case that the service will not return soon, we should remove the links in toto. --Izno (talk) 15:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
    Izno, fair enough. We could add a comment asking people to be careful when adjusting whitespace around the template in the second unnamed parameter (It would look like this in wikitext: {{Book link|[[Book:Example]]|Please be careful when adjusting whitespace around this template. See [[Template:Book link/doc]] for more information}}) which would partially relieve your concerns, but that's all I got in terms of improvements here. With regard to the possibilities that it will return I would estimate them as low but not negligable. We currently have one project working towards it by User:Dirk Hünniger, the creator of MediaWiki2LaTeX, which involves rendering a pdf version of every Book in the Book: namespace and serving them to readers. This would honestly be better than Wikipedia books have ever been since getting a pdf version would be quick. To be honest I'm not sure if books serve our readers at all anymore. The quality of most books seem to be very low with little curation or even just random pages probably originating from curious people trying out the book creator from the sidebar with no intention of making a good book. Even when there is a good book on the topic there are superior alternatives if you want to read Wikipedia articles offline, primarily our download as PDF feature. Most major browsers also have a read later feature now with can download webpages easily for future reading which is so much more convenient than using a Wikipedia book. I wouldn't oppose removing the links in toto either and adding links only to high quality books if books return, but I think preserving the links would be desirable and hence think my original proposal would be better. Keeping the status quo with thousands of inappropriate links in mainspace would be a distant last choice for me. --Trialpears (talk) 20:33, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, I think, at least the link to mediawiki2latex should be kept, since people are still using it to render pdf versions of books. I currently keep the server running and maintain the Debian package. I won't be able to come up with prerenderd pdfs soon since I currently lack the funds to buy new hardware and the old one is out of my reach to corona issues. Still these problem should cease in the beginning of 2021 due to a vaccine and my prolonged work contract at university.Dirk Hünniger (talk) 19:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Left-aligning particular columns

Is there a quick way to left-align the non-numeric columns (i.e, first and last column) in this table that uses style="text-align:right"? I first posted this question at Wikipedia:Help desk, and got a suggestion to use TemplateStyles. But I am unfamiliar with TemplateStyles. Is there an easier way? Best, Inimesh (talk) 02:14, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Either templatestyles or hard code in each cell. The 'easier' way is not accessible in MediaWiki. --Izno (talk) 02:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 Done. TemplateStyles doesn't seem to be all that difficult as I imagined it to be. Thanks! Inimesh (talk) 03:31, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Adding tags to Twinkle edits and actions

I'd like to use tags to identify edits and actions made by Twinkle. Right now, Twinkle tacks on a custom string to edit summaries. This makes it incredibly (read: near impossible) to search and filter for Twinkle edits, and currently doesn't work for a lot of logged actions. Moreover, since it can be customized, it's even more difficult to track down, and is an option for misuse. Compared to related things like Huggle (or even AWB), it's the odd-one-out. I've got a proposal all coded up if anyone's interested, but the basic gist is:

  • Remove the customizable ([[WP:TW|TW]]) ad
  • Identify actions taken by Twinkle with a tag (Twinkle)
  • Identify actions taken using the Morebits library but not by Twinkle with a tag (Morebits)

There's no need for an RfC or formal whatever, but as there's some precedence for polite discussion around the creation of tags, I wanted to do so here as well before I go ahead and make the tags and the change. ~ Amory (utc) 19:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Preventing people from changing the ad to something stupid sounds like a great idea to me. I'd'a probably written a patch for this a while ago if I had better JS skills. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 19:33, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Not really a fan of tagging the library separately. AFAIK TW is basically the only software to use morebits; even if it weren't, I'd prefer it if individual tools were independently indicated in our tags. --Izno (talk) 19:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
If I wasn't clear above, Twinkle would use one and only one tag: Twinkle. Only something that edited/deleted/etc. with morebits but not Twinkle would get the morebits tag. There are some uses of morebits for editing purposes around, but the only modern/active script I know of is Bellezzasolo's arb.js. This part obviously matters less, but I do think it'd be helpful for tracking down any uses, appropriate or not, as well as bugs and testing. ~ Amory (utc) 21:00, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, your original comment was sufficiently clear. My preference is either that the tag be signed as TW or not signed at all. --Izno (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't see a point to tagging non-Twinkle Morebits edits with a Morebits tag. It doesn't seem like a useful thing to filter on, and any other scripts that use it should have their own ad or tag. I'm in favor of replacing the Twinkle edit summary ad with a tag though, since structured data is always better than unstructured, and it can still link to the Twinkle page. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
I want every tool to tag edits. Reedy added tags to AWB two years ago, and IMO it ought to be standard for everything. If someone brings a diff to this page, you all shouldn't be left guessing how that edit was made. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
@Whatamidoing (WMF): I don't think I'm disagreeing with you. I'm under the impression that Morebits isn't a tool that does any sort of editing itself, just a library that tools can be built on top of. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:47, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I think one question I do have is that should we name the tag like the current ad, or change it to Twinkle. I support both but I like the legacy bit. --qedk (t c) 18:46, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
    I intend to do just twinkle. Tags typically display smaller than the edit summary text, so there's less of a need to shorten it, especially since it's not taking up edit summary space (and those limits have been increased since Twinkle was first started). The two-character difference ain't much. ~ Amory (utc) 14:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I support the creation of a Twinkle tag, and am ambivalent as to a seperate Morebits tag (I don't see much benefit or harm for that, except that non-TW tools built with morebits ought to be able to either keep using their own summary ads or use their own tags.) IMO, the name should be "Twinkle", not "TW", but I don't have particularly strong feelings either way on that. --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 21:34, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Enlarging the edit window

Hi all, not sure if this is the best place to ask, or if this can be carried down the line to Phabricator/MediaWiki people, but this is the only place I'm familiar enough with.

My question - Is there a way to create a new option in 'Preferences' to set the default editing window size? I've been editing with large monitors, especially with a new purchase in the last few weeks, and the edit window only takes up about 1/4 of the screen. I know I can drag it larger, though I don't want to have to do that every time I edit, and it often gets stuck. Not sure why, but once stuck I can only move it down a few centimeters on my screen before it sticks again...

Thanks and best, --ɱ (talk) 14:12, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

You can place the below or another height in your CSS. You can also preview it there to see the effect. I think it used to be a preference but was removed due to low usage. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:24, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
textarea {
  height: 50em;
Hm, thanks, I'll try it. Would be good to have some sort of master preferences or even just some links, some way for other people like me to find these sorts of things on their own... ɱ (talk) 14:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Alright, works well, thanks! ɱ (talk) 14:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
phab:T26430 removed it from preferences after it was already ignored by the normal skins. CSS is a whole language with numerous ways to customize a website. I use Google searches with "css", e.g. textarea size css in this case. Wikipedia:Customisation and Help:Cascading Style Sheets have a few tips but not this. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Please can you add it to one or both of those help pages? I would not know to search for css. ɱ (talk) 15:00, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
I got ECd but basically said what PrimeHunter said. And also came to the belief that Help:CSS was utter trash. We have a few help pages in this direction clearly but also clearly rather disorganized. (Maybe they just don't get read.) --Izno (talk) 15:12, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
This comes up here at VPT every year or so. See for example Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 175#Adjusting edit window size. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:10, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
While we're on the subject of documentation for custom CSS, the mw:Desktop improvements project is going to set a fixed width for page content. No matter what size is chosen, this is going to be nice for some people (nobody wants to read a paragraph that stretches across the entire width of an extremely wide screen) and irritating to others (because if I wanted so few words per line, I'd change my window size). So I request that when you are updating the documentation, that you please consider including an example about how to change the width. (Yes, there is a prefs setting for the project, but AFAIK they are not adding a prefs setting for each separate component. CSS tweaks to individual components will make it less of a one-size-fits-some package deal.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Rule 1 of web design: do not assume that you know anything about my screen. Least of all how wide it is.
  • Rule 2: do not assume that people will accept changes and stay. WP:Editor retention is a real problem.
This acreage of wasted space down the right can already be seen at the results list for Special:Search, where it may be overridden with this CSS rule:
.mw-searchresults-has-iw, {
  width: 100%;
  max-width: none;
and at Preferences → Gadgets (all skins), where it cannot be overridden with CSS. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

"Manual revert" tag

For anyone as surprised as me about the new tag "Manual revert", see mw:Manual:$wgManualRevertSearchRadius and meta:Research:Revert for details. By default, it has a search depth of 15 previous revisions. I like the feature! ~ ToBeFree (talk) 09:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Could we change its appearance to link to our appropriate reverting policies (alike to rollback and undo)? Ed6767 talk! 09:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
uselang=qqx on an example edit says "(tag-mw-manual-revert)". This means we can change it in MediaWiki:Tag-mw-manual-revert, like MediaWiki:Tag-mw-undo. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:14, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I've submitted an edit request at MediaWiki talk:Tag-mw-manual-revert Ed6767 talk! 12:13, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I wondered where this had come from when all my edifs were tagged with it. This is because I'm working my way through a backlog of bot tagged image files. I can't help wondering if that is not the sort of revert someone wantswants to be tracking? Nthep (talk) 12:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, this tag is really good when I saw it to prevent stuff like this however I just wish it was actually based on the steps to reverting such as opening an old revision in the client and not just any edit thats exactly the same as a previous version. Naleksuh (talk) 14:02, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the Google Summer of Code intern at Wikimedia working on this project. I implemented the manual revert tag and I'm really interested in how people react to it, so this conversation is very helpful and interesting :)

This feature is based on the contents of the page, nothing else. It's merely stating "this page has been restored to a previous state", which is admittedly rather simple. It's really hard to figure out what is the intent behind an edit (is it a willful revert or an accidental one?), so we just focus on data, not mind-reading. :P Basing the tag on the actual workflow used to achieve the revert would be a really interesting approach, but also a very complicated one and I'm not sure if possible with MediaWiki at all. The next step is we are going to implement a "reverted" tag which is even more riddled with questions regarding intent, so we probably will again go for a content-based approach, but with additional safeguards in place (that I'm working on right now).

We thought about how we could word the tag better given that Wikipedia has a very strong and concrete meaning associated with "revert", but ultimately we decided "manual revert" is just the simplest and we didn't have any other meaningful ideas. I hope the community accepts it, but if you have a better idea, the name of the tag can always be changed.

@Nthep: as for wikipedians tracking reverts, I guess one can use the RC filters to get exactly what they want, shouldn't be too hard. And as for the people doing analytics at Wikimedia – well, they have used an almost identical revert detection algorithm for quite some time and it was used to feed ORES. So I guess it should be OK for them :P

Any comments or ideas on the topic are very welcome! Also, blame me if it breaks. Ostrzyciel (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey Ostrzyciel, thank you very much both for the feature and joining the discussion. "Reverted" sounds like a very challenging, unique tag to implement, given that the software has to add it in hindsight. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 10:24, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Interestingly, normal bot edits are being tagged as manual revert. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:04, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I can't get captions to display from a module

Module:CFB_schedule is used in {{CFB_schedule}} and per MOS:TABLECAPTION, these all need to have a caption but I'm too stupid to get it to work at (e.g.) Last Chance U. I'm also tired. Can someone help me walk thru how to fix this? Thanks. ―Justin (koavf)TCM 09:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

This bit:
if caption then
		:css('padding', '0.25em')
		:css('font-weight', 'bold')
		:wikitext(self.caption or 'Season results')
caption is a global that is initialized to nil but is never assigned a value. It is generally not a good idea to use globals if they can be avoided. At the top of the module you might want to add require('Module:No globals') which will help to catch the (mis)use of globals.
Because caption is nil, if caption then is always false so the code inside the if never executes. self is another global. As a first hack you might try this:
local caption = args['caption'] or 'Season results'
		:css('padding', '0.25em')
		:css('font-weight', 'bold')
Trappist the monk (talk) 18:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
I would also discourage using addClass('navbox-title') unless you want to hide the caption on mobile. Frietjes (talk) 22:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Frietjes, in general, do not use classes that are specific for another template (and are semantic/have context), simply because they give you the look that you want. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, you don't need to tell me, I'm not the one who tried to do it. if only there were a protection level that would stop people from treating highly-used modules as a sandbox ... Frietjes (talk) 13:46, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Infobox redesign implementation: where do I go from here?

Nearly a month ago, I launched an RfC at Wikipedia:WikiProject Radio Stations/2020 infobox redesign proposal to redesign and update {{Infobox radio station}} and {{Infobox broadcast}}. There has been pretty much unanimous support for the redesign, and I'm ready to implement it in mainspace. Several parameter names are changing in both templates, so many transclusions are affected (the templates have 21600 and 3600 transclusions, respectively, and the impact is larger for the latter). I have the code (and TemplateData) ready, but I need someone who would be willing to do the actual template space edits (I am not a template editor) and to assist in doing the bot work to update the transclusion code to work with the new infobox code. Unfortunately I haven't been able to get a consistent hold of Plastikspork lately. Is there anyone who would be willing to help me out? Raymie (tc) 08:15, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Raymie You could ask Primefac who has a bot task that changes parameter names. --Trialpears (talk) 09:44, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Give me a specific list of parameters to change in each template and I can take care of it. As far as updating the templates, put the changes in the sandbox and it can be copied over to the main template once it's been shown to work according to plan. Primefac (talk) 13:21, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
I have responded on the discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
And I've replied there myself. Raymie (tc) 17:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

"Rollback all" fails if title contains non-standard character

"Rollback all" seems to fail whenever the article title contains a non-standard character. Example: I rolled back this series of spam edits; three titles were missed – Tigné Point‎, Ta' Pinu‎ and Ġnejna Bay (all of them co-incidentally in Malta) – and had to be done manually. Can anyone tell me if this is a feature of the software, or if it is caused by some add-on I'm using? Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@Justlettersandnumbers: can you be a bit more specific? Where are you hitting this "rollback all" function? Is this a script / gadget / native function? (Can you show the steps to reproduce this now?) — xaosflux Talk 13:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply, Xaosflux, from which it was clear to me that it isn't part of the software. I've now tracked it down, it's this script by Writ Keeper, which rightly or wrongly I have installed here (which is why I couldn't find it, duh!). Writ Keeper, is this a problem you know about? Is there any chance that it could be fixed? I for one would be very pleased. Thanks all round, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
New to me, but I'll definitely take a look. Writ Keeper  15:09, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
@Justlettersandnumbers: I couldn't replicate the problem, but looking at your global.js page, I see what's going on. You actually copy-pasted a (now out-of-date) version of my script that doesn't handle special characters correctly. You should replace the copy-pasted stuff in your global.js page (lines 14-61, inclusive) with mw.loader.load("//");; that'll make sure you always get the most recent version of the script, including the fix for special character handling. Let me know if you have any more issues! Writ Keeper  17:05, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you so much, Writ Keeper, done that, I'll see how it goes. As usual, this was user error; I was recently introduced to the acronym PICNIC (problem in chair, not in computer), which about sums me up. Thanks again, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:19, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Awami Nastaliq Font for Punjabi (Shahmukhi) Wikipedia

The current set of fonts for Punjabi (or Urdu) (pnb code, Perso-Arab script) do not support and Awami Nastaliq is the only font which seems to support it currently. The fonts also don't seem to work well with ݨ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taimoorahmed11 (talkcontribs) 23:49, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11: Hi, how is this related to English Wikipedia? Can you please provide a link where to see such a problem? --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 20:26, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
@AKlapper (WMF): I wasn't sure of the best place to put this so I decided to put it here and the problem occurs in words which have the letter or ݨ, you can also test it by using the {{nq| }} template.Taimoorahmed11 (talk) 21:07, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Improving cross-space search results

I'm sure we've all done this: you go to the search box, and type "Infobox person", forgetting the "Template:" prefix, and get lousy results. (The string "Infobox person" is first mentioned, not as a template, but as part of a category name, around result #400 at Amyra Dastur.) This is embarrassing, not least because it's the #1 result for google search. Hatnotes already take care of the situation where a mainspace article exists (e.g., Footnotes) but not when it doesn't. So, here's my modest proposal for improving the situation:

Define a namespace called Search:. In it, allow editors to add pages that function analogously to a redirect page; for example in this case, the page Search:Infobox person would contain * [[Template:Infobox person]]. When the search function returns no results, check the Search: space, and if there's a match, propose the item(s) found there in a Did you mean, modifying the "no results" boilerplate as follows:

Did you mean, "Template:Infobox person"? The page "Infobox person" does not exist. You can ask for it to be created, but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered.

More than one bullet item could be added in the infrequent cases where a search term matched more than one namespace, with the boilerplate modified accordingly. Mathglot (talk) 19:09, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, well; works better than I could've imagined, even with no software change. Check out this Wikipedia search for 'Infobox country'. Result #2. Mathglot (talk) 19:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Your trial only functions as expected because Search:Infobox country is in the mainspace. It would not function as such otherwise. --Izno (talk) 19:39, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Obviously! That's because there's no software change yet. It's just a proof of concept, is all. A "bootleg" implementation, if you will; but not a pretty one. Doing it the right way would be far better. Mathglot (talk) 19:41, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure how all of this complexity would help. If I search for "Infobox country" and get back a zillion wrong answers, I immediately figure out that I didn't limit my search to Template space. I click the X in the other namespaces, leaving only Template space, and search again. I immediately get the right result. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:47, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
True, but you're a highly experienced user. I wonder how many average users know how to do that. Also, what about lazy experienced users (like yours truly) who are impatient about having to perform two extra clicks get me somewhere, when functionally speaking, there's a good alternative. I can imagine that creating a new namespace is a big deal, and if it's too big a deal, maybe that's a reason not to do this. However, this whole proposal is nothing but a workaround for poor search results. If we had a more robust search function, it wouldn't be necessary. The "correct" fix for the problem, would be to fix search so it worked, but that really *is* a big deal. It seemed to me that this "Search-space" proposal finesses the problem, and is a much simpler solution for this than fixing the search function. Mathglot (talk) 19:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I think the search namespace is an complicated solution. An alternative is to expand an existing function in the search. If you search for an article title in the template namespace (for example George Barrington (random title)) then you get the result: "There is a page named "George Barrington" on Wikipedia". This message is MediaWiki:searchmenu-exists. So, if the search would do that also for main namespace searches (the main namespace is searched by default), then you would get results like "There is a page named "Template:Infobox country" on wikipedia."--Snaevar (talk) 15:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
All you need to do is go to Special:Search, click Advanced, enable all the namespaces that you may be interested in, then enable "Remember selection for future searches". --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:30, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Redrose64, Thanks, I've done this a lot, usually remember now, but I followed your advice and added template and it helped S Philbrick(Talk) 23:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I use advanced search all the time. Saving a broad set of namespaces won't work for me; I need to search as few namespaces as possible or it make the problem worse. But Snaevar's solution sounds interesting. @Kaldari and Xaosflux:, is this an area you might know about, or who might we need to talk to, to find out more about whether Snaevar's proposal might lead to something useful here? Would adding something to common.css or *.js help? Mathglot (talk) 02:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@Mathglot: I think I'm missing the problem a bit here, so you want to use the onwiki search utility, and you want to search in namespaces other than the namespaces you have already configured your search for? — xaosflux Talk 02:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Well, sort of, but not quite. Only in the case where it produces the boilerplate message, "The page '<Your search term>' does not exist. Do you have statistics on how often that happens? If it's a small percentage, then perhaps it wouldn't be too costly to perform a second search, opening it up to all namespaces (regardless of user defaults), and making it a double-quoted search if it isn't already. In this case, the behavior would be:
  • search for Infobox person in user's default namespaces, get "does not exist" red message.
  • save output results from that search
  • perform second search using all namespaces (unless that was the default), and using exact match (double-quoted search)
  • if second search has an exact match on query terms in another namespace, modify boilerplate to say, "Did you mean NameSpace:search terms?"
  • dump boilerplate, with saved output from first search.
Does that make sense? That was my original idea. However, it sounds like Snaevar came up with something, that I couldn't quite follow, but sounded interesting. Thanks for your comments. Mathglot (talk) 03:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@Mathglot: would this be simple enough to phrase as "IF search has 0 results, retry with all namespaces" (where possibly this is an option you could enable)? — xaosflux Talk 11:05, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Yes. Well, sort of; I don't know if it *ever* emits no results; it seems that even if you have no good results, search will try to do the best it can, and display 20 mediocre results, based on its relevance algorithm, rather than zero results. Maybe the simple IF would be, "If the first search would have emitted the red "<search term> does not exist" message, then retry with all namespaces (saving the previous result set so we can still display it later). With the possible addition of exact search (presumably that would make it less costly). The intent would be to make search friendlier for many users, especially naive ones. Having it as a settable Preference option would be great. Mathglot (talk) 11:14, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@Mathglot: that sounds like something you can ask for as a search improvement, file a phab request - I don't think it is something we should try to hack together with client-side java script. — xaosflux Talk 13:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll do that. Mathglot (talk) 04:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

References not showing

I would like to report that the article, "COVID-19 pandemic in Germany" at

does not render the reference list, nor do the reference links from the main text work. This problem occurs with Firefox 79.0 on a Mac, but also with other browsers. --CRau080 (talk) 18:23, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

CRau080, the issue is that page is too large making it hit the Post-expand include limit. There are really only two good solutions to this: Either split content into other articles per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE or remove content we shouldn't have, mainly excessive raw statistics per WP:NOTSTATS. --Trialpears (talk) 18:30, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
CRau080, I've started a discussion at the article's talk page. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 18:39, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Trialpears and Tenryuu for your responses. Since I cannot see a new edit of the article having been made in the intervening time, I believe that the article size limit has been deactivated until the problem is (hopefully soon) resolved; if yes, then thank you for this too. --CRau080 (talk) 20:47, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
@CRau080, Trialpears, and Tenryuu: By rearranging some templates to reduce nesting depth, I was able to get the page back under the limit without having to remove or split out any content. Jackmcbarn (talk) 07:17, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Unexpected page notice

When editing the article Somebody That I Used to Know, there is a page notice at the top informing users not to use links to "", but I can find no such link in the article. --Bensin (talk) 15:01, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Bensin, it's from Template:Editnotices/Page/Somebody_That_I_Used_to_Know. I'm guessing there has been repeated issues with people inserting links to and someone added this notice to stop it. --Trialpears (talk) 15:18, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Trialpears, thank you! I now better understand how that works. I will remove it. It has been there for almost seven years. No need to post warnings that are not relevant. Better then to trigger a message based on the actual content when that link is included in the wikicode. --Bensin (talk) 17:58, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Bensin, I've blanked the editnotice since only template editors, page movers and admins can change them. --Trialpears (talk) 18:23, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Trialpears, thank you again! The template has been nominated for deletion here: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August --Bensin (talk) 16:21, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Tool to see all blocks that affected an IP or range

Is there a tool that allows you to view all past blocks that affected an IP, and, conversely, all past blocks that affected any IP within a given range? Nardog (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Nardog: Special:Blocklist? example for an IP with multiple blocks. If you want to know if an ip was ever blocked though (esp if it was ever within a range block) it would require a query of the block log. — xaosflux Talk 17:56, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
@Nardog: I think what you are looking for doesn't yet exist, but is requested in phab:T188690. — xaosflux Talk 18:02, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Thanks. And even that seems to cover only the first thing I mentioned, but not the second (i.e. getting the same blocklist in your example by entering "", "", etc.). Nardog (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
@Nardog: OK, so for the second thing you want - a block log wildcard search would probably meet most of your cases (not exactly, but likely good enough) - this seems to be inthe request at phab:T31532. — xaosflux Talk 18:14, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
phab:T146628 is the parent task that should accomplish what you're asking for. But, I have doubts anything involving IP ranges will be developed until meta:IP Editing: Privacy Enhancement and Abuse Mitigation is figured out. MusikAnimal talk 01:23, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
You can maybe do this in Quarry, with the ipblockslogging table? But my SQL knowledge isn't up to scratch to be able to suggest how. (edit: maybe something like this?, or maybe not something like this, but something more sophisticated on the logging table) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
@Nardog: For the first one: you're looking for toolforge:rangeblockfinder. --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 20:31, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
@Mdaniels5757: Thanks, that's what I was looking for! Too bad it seems to support only enwp (and Meta) though. Nardog (talk) 02:40, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
@Nardog: ... for now (I'll probably try and change that soon™) --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 17:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Navbox formatting / transclusion rendering for non-navbox content?

Hello, at the bottom section of Hettites, the template Ancient Syria and Mesopotamia is transcluded. However, it somewhat stands out from the surrounding navboxes. Thus, how can the default navbox formatting be adapted in order to adjust the transclusion rendering of this template to that of regular navboxes (meaning that all templates appear in line, and in the same color at the bottom section of the said article, for instance)?--Hildeoc (talk) 13:00, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I think I have gotten it pretty close. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:15, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Jonesey95 and Hildeoc, I've made another change to the template, and for me it now looks identical to the other navboxes on the article page. rchard2scout (talk) 08:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@Jonesey95 and Rchard2scout: Thank you so much for your kind support! So nice. I think the template looks perfect now – exactly the way I wanted it. I love you guys at the English Wikipedia (the German community really sucks in comparison)!!! Muchas gracias & best wishes--Hildeoc (talk) 19:17, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

NRHP Coordinates issue

Dvorapa (pinging the developer, I think)

A reader noted that the latitude and longitude values as reported in NRHP summaries are incorrect in a number of cases. While they are only off a couple of blocks, it doesn't seem like they should be that far off.

As an example start at National Register of Historic Places listings in Santa Clara County, California

and look at the entry for the Andrew J. Landrum House (entry 49 in the table). The specific concern coordinates obtained by clicking on the "download coordinates as: KML" link in the upper right corner of the page.

I have confirmed, at least in this case, that the coordinates delivered from that download file match the coordinates in the location column of the table. In this specific case those values are:

37°20'50"N 121°56'52"W

In contrast, if you go to the article about the location Andrew J. Landrum House, there are two sets of coordinates on that page which thankfully match each other, but the value:

37°20'46.50"N 121°56'44.79"W

Is not the same as in the table and in the download.

If you go to a map using the linked article, you can confirm that you are on Santa Clara St. which matches the assertion that the address is 1217 Santa Clara St.

However, if you go to the coordinates that are downloaded, or the coordinates in the table, you will find yourself near the corner of Monroe St. and Homestead Road, roughly 2 blocks north and slightly west of the actual location.

If this was a one off, it would simply be a oddity, but it appears to be pervasive.

Any thoughts?--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:25, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject NRHP has been talking about these issues for a long time. The National Register's published coordinates are not up to modern standards, and editors improve coordinates as they come across them. As far as I know, every county list uses {{NRHPGoogleMapFootnote}} to mention the fact. Ntsimp (talk) 21:57, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Not sure if this is helpful, but the table seems to be using |lat=37.347222 |lon=-121.947778, which is not the same as what the article is using (37.34625, -121.945775). If you update the table's long/lat then it generates the correct DMS coordinates (which match with the article). Not sure how that table is generated, likely your question is something else, in which case just ignore me. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:13, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
ProcrastinatingReader, I presume that the reader wants to use the ability to click on the download link and have coordinates for all property simultaneously, so correcting the erroneous entry in the table doesn't help (unless that somehow updates the information being downloaded, I don't know the sequence of events). If updating the table doesn't update the downloaded information then it doesn't help. S Philbrick(Talk) 22:27, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Sphilbrick, I still feel like I'm missing something here? {{GeoGroup}} updates based on the coordinates in the article with no caching. As a test, I changed the coordinates in Special:Diff/970706657 (now reverted) and then downloaded the KML file, and its contents were updated with the new lat/long (which point to the correct location of the place) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
ProcrastinatingReader, Thanks for your follow-up note. The reader had identified this problem in a week or so ago but while I had wanted to do some personal research, real life has been a bit intense over the period and I couldn't get to it, so I offered to post to VPT based on the limited information I had. I did spotcheck two entries in the KML file, confirmed that they did not match the coordinates in the standalone articles, and confirmed that one of them did match the coordinates in the table. I presumed that the information in the KML file and in the table was related, but I didn't know whether the KML file data was generated from an external source, and that same data was used to populate the table, or vice versa. I still don't know for sure but your experiment suggests that whatever is in the table then populates the KML file. if that turns out to be correct than it "simply" means that every entry in the table has to be corrected, and the KML file will then be correct. This sounds like a job for a bot, if it makes sense to conclude that the standalone articles have the correct coordinates, then the table should be populated with those values. However, I personally don't feel that I know enough about it to even make this recommendation, so I'm hoping people with more familiarity of the overall process can weigh in. S Philbrick(Talk) 12:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Bot requests#Copy coordinates from lists to articles for the opposite discussion: several lists have been corrected, but the articles have not. kennethaw88talk 19:59, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
As I was pinged: Yes, the KML file should always be generated from coordinates present in the article. So basically, this means you should keep the article in the best possible state (everything up-to-date and correct) and the KML file generator will then just output the article coords into the file. Only sometimes some caching could be involved, that the changes in article propagate into the KML file with some delay, but that happens almost never. --Dvorapa (talk) 20:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Indexing by robots

Recently Google has been indexing new article pages that are not yet patrolled. It appears that unpatrolled pages are now allowing indexing by robots. I thought the idea was to prevent this so that inappropriate pages are kept away from search engines. Was this a deliberate change or a bug? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:21, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Graeme Bartlett, I picked a few random unpatrolled new articles. They all have <meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow">, which should instruct search engines to not index them. The page information does show that indexing is allowed, but that is phab:T157747. Can you provide an example of an article that is indexed that shouldn't be? --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 23:47, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I just came across Kuiper Systems indexed by Google. I am being misled by page information as well though! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:49, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Graeme Bartlett, That page was created on 4 April 2019. Unreviewed articles that are more than 30 or 90 days old (I can't remember which) will automatically become indexed. This is documented...somewhere, but probably should be documented somewhere given I couldn't find the exact number. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 23:56, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, perhaps we need to match no-indexing more to unpatrolled though, when redirect is changed to an article it could go to no-index. But it may be too late to remove search engine links already made. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

TemplateStyles for Template:Vertical header

In order to help resolve the problems mentioned in #References not showing above, I have been trying to convert Template:Vertical header to use TemplateStyles. My attempt is at Template:Vertical header/sandbox and Template:Vertical header/styles.css, with Lua code in Module:Vertical header/sandbox. However, I can't seem to get the styles to work - the headers in my test case at Template:Vertical header/testcases remain distinctly horizontal, and judging from the Firefox dev tools, the styles aren't being loaded. Is this a context in which TemplateStyles won't work, or am I just missing something obvious? — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 14:56, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I think that the CSS for the sandbox needs to under the sandbox. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 15:51, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Mr. Stradivarius if i call the testcase directly, it adds the templatestyles smack in the middle between cell start of the rowspan attribute and the rest of the cells attributes in wikisyntax.. So this order doesn't work. Either add the template styles at the end of the template, or insert them using the module into a place that is expecting HTML (content), instead of wikisyntax. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 16:23, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks both of you for the explanations. That makes sense, and putting the TemplateStyles tag after the #invoke does indeed do the trick. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 13:38, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Toolserver replication lag for enwiki is now over 36 hours

Anyone have any idea why this is happening? It considerably reduces the usefulness of PetScan and other tools.


William Avery (talk) 09:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I opened Phabricator ticket T259174

William Avery (talk) 18:09, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
There's maintenance going on production that's affecting the Cloud Services replicas. See the lag on db1106 at I was told to expect this to continue for at least another day or two. MusikAnimal talk 19:37, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. I've closed the ticket. William Avery (talk) 20:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
That maintenance is phab:T254462, by the way. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 23:39, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
The current replag means that some database reports are now badly out of date. If this edit is to be believed, only one out of our 1,000 most active editors did anything at all yesterday. Congratulations to Atlantic306 (talk · contribs) who made as many as three edits! --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Must mean there's a bumper day coming, somewhere down the track. :-) William Avery (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Edit counter

Can someone explain why the editcount tool is so messed up? It says "Caution: Replication lag is high, changes newer than 2 days may not be shown." I'v never seen it like this. Maybe a lag of a few hours, but never 2 days. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 01:34, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not really 'messed up' - just informing you that the copy of the database it is using hasn't been updated to reflect changes being made to the wiki for an unusually long time ('lagged'). The lag won't improve until replication resumes. William Avery (talk) 08:09, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
@Editorofthewiki: This is nothing new, replag was pretty bad through most of May this year. It happens from time to time. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:00, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Cannot remember a lag of 4 days ever happening before. What's the problem with the database replication? --Wolbo (talk) 23:06, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Wolbo, database db1106 has a very very high lag due to maintenance - see Ed6767 talk! 23:19, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

The replag was finally cleared yesterday morning (UTC). Daily reports should be up to date; reports that run less frequently may need a few days to catch up. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

There's something funny going on. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Replication lag

There is a thread above that supposedly addressed the concern that the replication lag at the edit counter has been as high as four days because of maintenance at another site. I do not know why it is taking longer than usual, and if it is affected by manpower issues due to this pandemic. Around two days ago, the replication lag went down to around two hours, which is normal. However, when I checked it again after a few hours, it went up to two days again. Then it went down again, and now up again. Why was the replication lag going back and forth for the past two days? LSGH (talk) (contributions) 08:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

As an example of replag regressing, see this edit. On the |ed= row, the old figure of 228152 was exactly right; the new figure should be 228167 and not 227999. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:35, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Does that show that the bot was unintendedly fetching a slightly earlier version of the data? LSGH (talk) (contributions) 15:05, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-32

15:42, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Infobox previous and next

I'd like to add links to an infobox that is about a series of books/tractates in one collection. An analogy (and where I got the idea) is the [year] in [country] infobox which has links for the previous and next years, for example this one: 2013 in the United States. I'd like to have the next and previous on one line in the infobox, the backwards and forwards pointing arrows would be nice-to-haves also, but a 'previous' and 'next' heading above each entry would be fine too. The infobox in question is this: Template:Infobox Tractate

I've tried both copying and adapting the code in the 'year in' infobox without success, as well as searching for the information on how to do it here, but not finding anything - perhaps I just don't know what it's called. So, any help pointing me to the right instructions, or even better, the right code :-) would be greatly appreciated. --Chefallen (talk) 18:16, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

In this version add in }}<noinclude> after your change to get the infobox to display. Keith D (talk) 23:10, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
You could use the code from season templates
| data11 = {{succession links|left = {{{previous|}}}|right={{{next|}}}}}
Keith D (talk) 23:20, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Awesome! Thank you, Keith D --Chefallen (talk) 04:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Thoughts on mwclient

I've used mwclient on and off for many years. For simple stuff, it's always been good enough. Lately, I've been working on a larger scale project that uses it, and I'm getting frustrated. To be fair, this is an amazingly solid piece of software which has been the go-to python implementation forever. The lower layers seem really solid. It's the upper layers that bother me.

  • It's too thin a layer, i.e. it exposes too much of the (baroque) Action API. For example, I shouldn't be building argument lists by smashing together 'this|that|the other thing' stings. I should be passing in ['this', 'that', 'the other thing'] iterables.
  • I shouldn't be working with struct_time tuples, I should be working with datetime objects.
  • It's missing too much functionality. Too often I need to dive down to the listing.List layer to do what I want.

So, my question is, if you could have mwclient-the-next-generation, what would you want to see in it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoySmith (talkcontribs) 19:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Please don't smash me or put me into iterables! This, that and the other (talk) 07:36, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
In general I always recommend using Pywikibot. It likely has more features than you'll ever need, but it handles just about every edge case well and its reasonably maintained by an active team of developers. Legoktm (talk) 05:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Bug on mobile version

Fixed – See phab and SAL log Ed6767 talk! 12:49, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

There's a bug on the mobile version of Wikipedia where the text that is supposed to say who last edited the article is instead some other text and is not clickable. I'm using a Pixel 3a and get the bug on both Chrome and Firefox. It has appeared on every article for the past few hours. Here's a screenshot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheesycow5 (talkcontribs) 01:43, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Seems to happen in multipe language versions (at least dewiki and eswiki too) since about midnight UTC, see phab:T259571. --Count Count (talk) 02:09, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Looks like it affects all the Wikimedia sites. Wiktionary, Wikivoyage, etc. Cheesycow5 (talk) 03:14, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, it appears to be a global issue, affecting all projects and languages. The new Phabricator task is phab:T259565. Ahmadtalk 03:20, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Same problem — M. Humeniuk (talk) 05:18, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

  • I believe it's been fixed now. Ahmadtalk 12:27, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Attribute selectors

Why attribute selectors doesn't work? I try use that code th[style*="background-color: rgb(235,235,210)"][colspan="2"] for this page Template:Taxobox/doc. I tried many options and only specifying the selector directly gave the desired result. — Preceding unsigned comment added by InfinitumScientiam (talkcontribs) 23:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@InfinitumScientiam: I tried running document.querySelectorAll('th[style*="background-color: rgb(235,235,210)"][colspan="2"]') in my browser console, and it found headings containing "Asian golden cat", "Scientific classification", "Binomial name", "Rorquals", "Scientific classification", "Genera", "Red wood ant", "Scientific classification", and "Binomial name". Is that not what you expected? If not, what did you expect? If so, what different results do you get, and how exactly were you getting them? Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:24, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
I try to change headings using common.css, but i takes security message and style don't work.
Code that you insert on this page could contain malicious content capable of compromising your account. If you import a script from another page with "importScript" or "iusc", take note that this causes you to dynamically load a remote script, which could be changed by others.
If you are unsure whether code you are adding to this page is safe, you can ask at the appropriate village pump. The code will be executed when previewing this page.
If I change style using DevTools my code work.
Full code:
th[style*="background-color: rgb(235,235,210)"][colspan="2"] {
    background: #ccc !important;
At the beginning, I thought about a conflict in my css file and therefore left only this rule, but it did not work. And then I noticed a security message that I understand prevents me from using the attribute selectors.
@Jackmcbarn: It's fixable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by InfinitumScientiam (talkcontribs) 00:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@InfinitumScientiam: It works for me, exactly as it is in your user CSS file. Did you see this message at the top of the page? Note: After saving, you have to bypass your browser's cache to see the changes. Google Chrome, Firefox, Microsoft Edge and Safari: Hold down the ⇧ Shift key and click the Reload toolbar button. For details and instructions about other browsers, see Wikipedia:Bypass your cache. Did you try that? Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: Yes, i always do that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by InfinitumScientiam (talkcontribs) 03:12, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@InfinitumScientiam: What browser and version are you on? (By the way, you're supposed to sign your posts on discussion pages, and since you don't, your pings don't work.) Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:15, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: I use Vivaldi 3.1.1929.48 InfinitumScientiam (talk) 04:17, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@InfinitumScientiam: Do you have any better luck if you try in a more mainstream browser like Firefox or Chrome? Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:18, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: Vivaldi is a Chrome-based browser, it's not a problem. The problem is that the wikipedia doesn't resolve attribute selectors, and i don't know why. InfinitumScientiam (talk) 04:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@InfinitumScientiam: How about .biota th[colspan="2"]? Nardog (talk) 06:04, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@InfinitumScientiam: Regarding the "security message" beginning Code that you insert on this page ..., you should not worry. That is from MediaWiki:Userjsdangerous, which is a generic message used on all CSS and JS pages regardless of content, it isn't warning you about anything specifically within the code that you pasted - it's shown for anything, including a completely empty edit window. It's rather misleading, because it's difficult for a CSS page to contain malicious content, and even more difficult for it to be capable of compromising your account. If you know what you're doing, you can make a page difficult to use - such as being entirely invisible - but that won't cause any security issues. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:30, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Nardog: Thanks, it's works! May be I must up my css skills. InfinitumScientiam (talk) 16:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Donation banners

Hey there,
I asked this a couple of days back at Wikipedia:Help desk#Donation site banner. Even though I understand that WMF has a large financial requirement to run a project of this size, I am still unable to gather why this campaign is being held now. I have never ever seen banners this large, nor have I ever seen them add a sticky header. I thought people here would be more aware of a relevant discussion, if there was one. -- (talk) 09:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

meta:Fundraising#Contact Us. --Malyacko (talk) 13:27, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. -- (talk) 20:49, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I hear that they're running short tests right now. They do a lot of A/B testing for fundraising campaigns, so that the best bannerr ris the one that gets shown during the main end-of-year campaign. (Here. The correct time of year, and the correct campaign varies by country/prevailing tax law system, apparently.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:48, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Whatamidoing (WMF), have you seen the banners, particularly the mobile banners, for the month-long India campaign? They're...bad. Words like "malware-injected popup ads" have been used to describe them. Repeatedly. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 17:03, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Changing color of reference label

For a table with themed coloring, the header row has a dark background and white text. However, the row also has citations, and when these are in blue they disappear against the background. Is there any way to get the [1] part of a reference to render in a color other than blue? {{u|Sdkb}}talk 07:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so. I checked mw:Help:Cite, but couldn't find anything modifying the color of that part. Moreover, I think it's inherited from the style of the <a> element. It's the same for links, but we can change their color because defining an alias is possible. Here, however, the reference is generated automatically. Ahmadtalk 08:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Sdkb: It can be done, see Doctor Who (season 1)#Serials, the headers of the last two columns of the table. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:32, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Redrose64, hmm, that looks life coloring the background behind the ref, not the ref itself. Might be better than nothing, though. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 11:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Ahmad is correct. I would also generally suggest not coloring headers instead of trying to fix the colors of the links therein. :) --Izno (talk) 20:41, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

"hide" inaccurately appears in Google's Featured Snippets

When a collapsible Wikipedia table appears in Google's Featured Snippets, the word "hide" will be inaccurately concatenated at the beginning of the header for the last column.

Steps to Reproduce: Open Google Chrome version 84 and navigate to then Copy + Paste: "list of longest-running scripted u.s. primetime television series" into the Google Search bar

Actual Results: hideNumber of episodes appears as the header for the last column.

Expected Results: Number of episodes should appear as the header for the last column.

Possible Solution? Modify MediaWiki's Common.js to include Google's data-nosnippet attribute within a span around 'hide' in the resulting HTML document. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JackWeather (talkcontribs) 10:01, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

That table really shouldn't be collapsible to begin with so I've fixed it for this page at least. --Trialpears (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
How can I tell when a table should/shouldn't be collapsible? And won't tables that should be collapsible still run into this issue? --JackWeather (talk) 10:28, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
The [hide]/[show] links are added by the site's JavaScript to any table that belongs to the class collapsible, and are added by the MediaWiki software to any table that belongs to the class mw-collapsible. There's a template {{Show button}} which can be used to move those [hide]/[show] links away from their default position; it's used in {{WikiProject banner shell}} which is mw-collapsible. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:38, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Generally, no tables should be collapsible in mainspace (see WP:MOSCOLLAPSE). --Izno (talk) 20:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Talk banners on mobile

Re this discussion about an FAQ, Newslinger suggested coming to VPT might be a good idea. Talk banners appear to be hidden on mobile devices. Is all this stuff hidden by the software itself for any kind of talk banner, or just for the classes applied by {{Tmbox}}? In other words, any way we can show an FAQ (and possibly simple DS notices) on talk pages on mobile? Perhaps T159262 might allow a workaround, if there's software restrictions? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:19, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Reproducing my comment here:

I don't think any {{Tmbox}}-based templates, such as {{FAQ}}, are visible on the mobile website. For example, here is a list of pages in the Wikipedia namespace that use {{Tmbox}}, and any of the pages on this list can demonstrate this. You can switch to the mobile view (even on a desktop or laptop) by clicking on the "Mobile view" link at the bottom of any Wikipedia page. To switch back, go to the bottom of the page again and click the "Desktop" link.

This is particularly an issue for discretionary sanctions talk notices, which are implemented with {{Tmbox}}. Editnotices aren't available on the mobile website yet, which means that there is no way for mobile device users to see sanctions notices unless they manually switch to the desktop website. This is noted in WP:AC/DS §, but is certainly less than ideal. — Newslinger talk 12:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Looks like the software isn't stopping .tmbox being sent to the client, it's just hidden using CSS. So the quickest workaround I can think of appears to be a "mobile-friendly version" of these notices (FAQ and DS) being made, since the current ones are way too lengthy, and embedded into the same templates, then override the display: none for mobile devices, but not displaying them on any desktop versions. Conceivably, that would work. We'd need to ensure this doesn't get out of hand with every other template trying to use it to add mobile banners, which would result in talk pages becoming a mess on mobiles. Talk notices aren't exactly renowned for their brevity. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:47, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
These templates could likely be 'fixed' by implementing TemplateStyles in the messagebox series of templates, but some thought must be given to the implementation of such so that cascading works reasonably (see WT:TemplateStyles/Archive 1#In the context of meta templates, notably that a templatestyles tag added for a specific template should be able to be placed after the core styles templatestyles tag somehow but preferably not after the content being styled so we don't get FOUCs). --Izno (talk) 21:00, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

On Mobile. How do I make it so that for me, the letter "e" is bolded and appears on an orange background

As the title says. Check my common.css, and please show me what code will do the trick. I suck at programming, for I have never made a single program in my life. A diehard editor (talk) 13:02, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Where is an example of a page you have this on it? In your css you are styling the 'a' element, do you have an 'a' element of just "e"? — xaosflux Talk 13:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
A diehard editor, I'm all for people learning new technologies, but I think your question would be better asked someplace that specializes in HTML and CSS. W3 Schools and Stack Overflow are my go-to sites for CSS-related questions.
My other suggestion is if you're running Chrome (there's probably similar ways in other browsers), View / Developer / Inspect Elements will let you see every imaginable detail of how Wikipedia is rendering your page, and live-adjust the CSS to see what effect each change has. At the very least, you'll be able to confirm that your CSS is being included. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:15, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
CSS cannot, by itself, examine the text of a page in order to style part of it differently. The text that is to be styled differently needs to be marked up in a way that distinguishes it from the rest of the page. So for example, if a page contains the text "Orange is both a colour and a fruit", there is nothing we can do in CSS to make that "e" look different. But if we mark up the letter concerned like this:
  • Orang<b>e</b> is both a colour and a fruit → Orange is both a colour and a fruit
With this, most browsers will show the letter "e" in bold. Since that letter is now marked in a way that distinguishes it from adjacent text, it may be styled:
  • Orang<b style="color:orange;">e</b> is both a colour and a fruit → Orange is both a colour and a fruit
This uses inline styling, which is fine for one-off cases; but if you need to do it a lot you may prefer to use a class:
  • Orang<b class=boldorange>e</b> is both a colour and a fruit → Orange is both a colour and a fruit
That doesn't look any different from the first example above, but if you add this rule
b.boldorange { color: orange; }
to your CSS then that bold letter "e" will appear orange for yourself, nobody else. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:55, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
A diehard editor, it seems to me that you would like to customize your signature on Wikipedia. —⁠andrybak (talk) 16:48, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, but it still doesnt work. A diehard editor (talk) 04:00, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@A diehard editor: It's a two-part thing: you need both the stylesheet and the markup in the text.
Regarding the stylesheet: This one includes the rule that I advised: subsequent edits have broken it, for example in the current version you have the selector body: boldorange but whilst body is valid, : boldorange is not. For boldorange to be recognised as a class, it must be preceded by a dot. The presence or absence of whitespace is also significant: try using the selector body .boldorange or even .boldorange. But whichever selector you use, this rule will not carry out any bolding.
Regarding the markup: the letters that you wish to chaneg the appearance of must be marked up in a way that identifies them. Above, I used Orang<b class=boldorange>e</b> is both a colour and a fruit - here, the <b>...</b> tags carry out the markup and they also boldface the enclosed text. I don't see anything in your recent contributions that uses that markup.
You need both, they won't do the whole job in isolation. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh well then, Ima forget about trying to make every letter e appear orange and bold to me. I wanted every instance of letter e in mainspace to be orange and bold too, by the way, but r.i.p me then. A diehard editor Editing Wikipedia too much rn, talk to me here, bruh. 01:05, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

A diehard editor, you can do this in Javascript, although it'd be too much work and rather pointless, but in CSS this is impossible, see this CSS spec Ed6767 talk! 01:26, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Blank page

Hi. When I tried today to access the page Overture (Bruckner), I got only a blank screen. Please fix this issue. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 13:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

 Works for me @Meneerke bloem: please try again, if it is still not working, please try in safe mode. — xaosflux Talk 13:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Xaosflux It is only working in safe mode. What could be "unsafe" in the page, so that it can be removed? --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 14:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Meneerke bloem: try clearing your cache and restarting your browser. Also, have you enabled any experimental features or non-default gadgets in your preferences? — xaosflux Talk 15:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Xaosflux I have cleared the cache and restarted the computer, and... I can still open it only in safe mode. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 17:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Meneerke bloem: are you using a desktop browser? Can you try to see if you can open it when you are not logged in to wikipedia, possibly in a private browsing window, and possibly with a different browser? Is your browser a relatively current version? — xaosflux Talk 17:57, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Meneerke bloem, It would help if you could let us know 1) What browser you're using, and 2) What operating system. That will help people reproduce the problem you're seeing. For what it's worth, I just tried it on my MacOS system using Chrome, Firefox, and Safari, and on my Android phone, and no problems on any of those. So, it's likely something specific to your environment and the more we know about your environment the more we can help you. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Xaosflux I have used Interner Explorer. I just tried to open it via Firefox, with also a blank page. My operating system is Windows 10. NB: I have no problem with the corresponding page on the French Wikipedia. But (very strange), I have the same problem with the corresponding IMSLP page, that I can also open only via an "index.php?" connection. The problem concerns thus apparently only these specific English Wikipedia and IMSLP pages.--Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply)
Xaosflux & RoySmith I have also tried to open it via Google Chrome, with also a blank page...
PS: I have today downloaded a recording of the Bruckner's Overture on YouTube. Should it interfere? --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 18:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Meneerke bloem: Can you try the mobile view? Also If you haven't spent a lot of time customizing things, you can try to reset your prefences using these 2 links: Special:Preferences/reset and Special:GlobalPreferences/reset. — xaosflux Talk 19:20, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
If you go to the page, can you use your browser to 'view the source' - and see if there is anything in there at all? — xaosflux Talk 19:21, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Meneerke bloem: Another thing you might try is looking back in the page history and seeing if there's some earlier revision which is viewable. Maybe the problem is that somebody inserted some broken wiki-markup. Narrowing it down to two successive revisions, one of which you can view and the other of which you can't, would be useful. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
I have done all that you have advised. It does unfortunately not help. I can still open the page only with [19] --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 09:00, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
When you try to open the page in a new private-browsing window, after your browser stops processing, look at the "view source" for the page, is there anything at all in the html source? — xaosflux Talk 13:59, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Download subset of the database (HTML Pages)


We wish to scrape information regarding the Malls in the United States. Here is the link I was wondering how can we download all the articles mentioned on this link. Please note that we wish to download the pages using nested links as well. Please suggest a suitable approach.

Thanks, Ashwini — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashwinitonge (talkcontribs) 22:57, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Ashwinitonge, Here's a broad outline, which assumes you can write code.
Wikipedia has an API, the technical details of which can be found here. You will almost certainly not want to talk directly to the API, but rather use some higher-level client library in the language of your choice. For example, if I was doing this in Python, I would use mwclient, which offers a very convenient way to traverse categories. You could start with Category:Lists of shopping malls in the United States and walk the tree from there.
Warning: Although it's easy to think of categories as being a tree, they're not strictly a tree in the graph theory sense of the word. There's even category cycles! So, your "tree" walking code will have to take that into account. -- RoySmith (talk) 02:36, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Ashwinitonge, and please have any automation observe the Etiquette. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

There is a unix command-line tool Wikiget that makes interfacing with the API easier. Run wikiget -F 'List of shopping malls in the United_States' > forward.txt to make a list of the forward links. Then to retrieve the article source for each run awk '{print "wikiget -w \"" $0 "\" > " $0 }' forward.txt | csh. That downloads the wikisource. To download the HTML awk '{print "wget -q -O- \"" $0 "\" > " $0 }' forward.txt | csh. To get the list of articles from the category it would be wikiget -c 'List of shopping malls in the United_States' > category.txt -- GreenC 14:08, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Access to non-notable articles

The OP has repeatedly failed to actually specify what they are asking for here, despite being asked multiple times, merely replying that they believe "it" (whatever "It" is) is feasible, and that others don't understand. Since it is impossible to answer a question that is not explained in understandable terms, this section is merely wasting the time of many other editors. If the OP is capable of explaining exactly what they are asking for, in clear and unambiguous terms, they may open a new section here. Otherwise, this is merely a timesink. Black Kite (talk) 18:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is a technical and policy-related proposal.

Wikipedia:Viewing deleted content only adduces legal concerns that do not relate to notability. In Policy suggestion, Ghostofnemo and others wish to access content that is not legally problematic. This is feasible.

If you would like this feature, could any autoconfirmed user create a project page like Wikipedia:List of non-notable articles and help me develop the system? Later, new templates would help. (talk) 15:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi 84, there is no guarantee that deleted revision will be available in the future, however copies of deleted pages are routinely provided on request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion depending on why the page was deleted. — xaosflux Talk 15:54, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
For clarity, this was initially discussed here and then here. 84 seems to be requesting the creation of a list of all articles that have been deleted for notability concerns, not individual articles on a case-by-case basis, as is the norm. Parsecboy (talk) 18:22, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
@Parsecboy: For further clarity, you do not seem to understand the proposal. Also, you said "I don't really care one way or another", but you do care with your "all articles that have been deleted". Please be more clear and let me ask a stupid question: will any administrator retaliate against any user that would like this feature? (talk) 18:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
If I do not understand your proposal, it's because you haven't sufficiently explained it. But since I apparently do not understand it, do me a favor and explain how have I mischaracterized it. Are you not asking for a list of all articles that have been deleted on notability grounds? If not that, what exactly would be the purpose of your proposed Wikipedia:List of non-notable articles entail? Parsecboy (talk) 18:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
I doubt we are going to want to spend time maintaining a special list of articles that have been deleted based upon the reason they were deleted - especially ones that are speedily deleted. You may use the deletion log to browse these along with the deletion reason, but if you want to filter that by namespace you will need to wait for phab:T16711. — xaosflux Talk 19:25, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
  • For the record: First administrator tells me she is not interested; end of discussion. Second administrator tells me to go to the village pump; end of discussion.
@Parsecboy: Let us see what work would entail for you. If I ask you to restore Dhruv Vikram (actor), what would you do? (talk) 19:35, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Please link the places where you were told these things. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:44, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
See the two threads I linked above, Redrose.
84., you have not answered my question; if you're going to condescend about what I do and do not understand, do me the favor of explaining my misapprehension. I'll ask again: if you are not asking for a list of every article that has ever been deleted on notability grounds, what are you asking for? Parsecboy (talk) 19:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not condescending to you, I am just trying to explain. You show your misapprehension by saying:
It would probably be several full-time jobs to go through every article that's ever been deleted on notability grounds, not to mention keep up with it on a daily basis. [...] you're talking about an enormous amount of material that would likely require hundreds, if not thousands, of sub-lists to keep the size within manageable limits.

This is not true.

Answering your question: a list of every article that has ever been deleted on notability grounds is eventually possible if users make all the corresponding requests or if archeological administrators wish to restore such articles. I am asking for a list of requested articles and possibly every article that will be deleted on notability grounds. (talk) 21:35, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi 84, admins deleting a page should be noting why the page was deleted. I'm assuming you are referring to speedy deletions here. You are welcome to download and mine the deletion log to generate lists (note, this does not mean you can store/host such lists on-wiki). — xaosflux Talk 22:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Here and here, 84 appears to be suggesting that the content of all deleted non-notable articles that don't have copyvio/legal issues should be viewable on-wiki, which clearly isn't going to happen. Asking for individual articles to be restored to Draft space is absolutely fine, of course, if they don't have such issues - and we have processes for that (WP:REFUND). Black Kite (talk) 22:46, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
This request is dead in the water and would be closed swiftly if proposed as an actual change. I'm minded simply to {{atop}} this and move on (maybe a trout for the user who suggested "try at WP:VP", who probably also knew this would be dead in the water). (On an aside, if there is a legitimate research use, there is a user group available for a logged in user.) --Izno (talk) 22:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Please do not be offended, I am trying to have a simpler discussion.
@Parsecboy: I am concentrated on your understanding of my proposal. As you may see, there are no legal issues, no feasibility problems, insignificant maintenance cost, and very little extra load for administrators. Of course, if you are going to get into trouble, I would understand your refusal. (talk) 23:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
You clearly do not understand the project you're requesting if you think there is insignificant maintenance cost or extra load for administrators... Parsecboy (talk) 23:57, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
So, did you understand the proposal from the beginning? Please tell me, what would be the maintenance cost? (talk) 00:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I did; I have no idea why you thought I didn't. As for maintenance costs, tell me, how often are articles deleted every day? And do you imagine that those articles that are deleted will magically populate the page you're requesting all by themselves? Parsecboy (talk) 09:00, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Oh, you do not seem to understand the proposal; I told you why.[20] Let us say one million articles are deleted per day. Why do you think those articles will not magically appear in the list? Perhaps because you are imagining a page displaying millions of entries at the same time? (talk) 14:30, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
The reason he (and everyone else) doesn't understand your proposal is because you haven't, at any point, clearly explained exactly what you want. You keep mentioning lists of deleted articles and then talking about the ability to view deleted content. Anyway, please read my comment below as for why both are almost certainly not feasible. Black Kite (talk) 14:46, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@Black Kite: Please do not be offended, I am trying to have a simpler discussion.
Then please explain, concisely, what the benefits of such a list are to anyone because I don't see any. Nthep (talk) 16:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@Parsecboy: I am concentrated on your understanding of my proposal. I will await your reply. (talk) 15:00, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
84., an admin would have to manually review each article deleted to see if it was deleted on notability grounds, and then copy the title (and/or the content) into your proposed list. Why on earth do you think the list would automatically self-populate? Parsecboy (talk) 15:19, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
This is an example of a big list that self-populates: Wikipedia:Contents/A–Z index. (talk) 16:10, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, you could do that for deleted material. But as I said before (a) how would you check which articles were deleted for notability? and (b) no-one except administrators would be able to see the content anyway. 16:40, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@Black Kite: Please sign your posts properly.[21]
@Parsecboy: I await your reply. (talk) 18:25, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment., there is a website called Deletionpedia (, which automatically archives all Wikipedia articles discussed for deletion. I don't know if it captures all speedy deletion candidates (I think it does get some of them), but if not you could certainly propose that to them. BD2412 T 00:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@BD2412: Thank you. I knew about Deletionpedia. (talk) 01:00, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Since that project specifically focuses on content deleted from Wikipedia, what are you looking for that can't be better addressed there? BD2412 T 01:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
First, I am here to improve Wikipedia. Some users would like to access content that is not legally problematic. It is feasible.
On the other hand, Deletionpedia is not integrated with Wikipedia. There are several inconveniences that are out of the scope of this discussion. (talk) 01:25, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
It is not feasible. The only two ways it could happen are;
1) To give non-admins the view_deleted permission, which isn't possible
2) To somehow find all the hundreds of thousands of articles which were deleted for notability concerns only, and restore them - but to where? Certainly not Wikipedia.
There are other problems; first of all it's practically impossible to find the deletion reason for anything deleted via AFD because the deletion log doesn't give a reason other than "deleted via AfD". Speedy deletions may give a log reason, but even if they were deleted for reason A7 and that appears in the log, that doesn't mean they didn't have copyright or other legal/BLP issues. Even if you could find a way round those issues, the sheer volume of articles means it would have to be done via an bot with admin permissions, and it is unlikely that (a) one would pass BRFA and (b) that you could find anyone to write such a complex bot, given that no reasonable explanation has been given for why this task is useful in the first place. Black Kite (talk) 02:14, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
I actually don't see why it would be impossible to create a permission for non-admins to view deleted edits, but if we had such a permission it would need its own fairly strict process for being granted to editors, who would first need to demonstrate a high level of experience and trustworthiness. BD2412 T 16:31, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
WMF Legal have previously said that they would not contemplate it being extended further than admins and higher permissions. Thus, any process for being granted would have to be functionally identical to RfA, in which case those wanting the access might as well run for RfA anyway. Regardless, I think what the IP asking for is either (a) for any editor to be able to view all deleted material, which is a non-starter, or (b) for all material deleted for notability issues to be undeleted, which clearly isn't happening either. Black Kite (talk) 16:36, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment, it is feasible to create such a list, and i, amongst numerous other editors would be lining up to have it deleted at afd (if it wasn't speedied). Coolabahapple (talk) 05:59, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What is this message?

What is this message, "You do not have permission to move category pages."? Reply with the exact MediaWiki namespace message, I want to propose changes. –User456541 17:45, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@User456541: it is MediaWiki:Cant-move-category-page - and notably that deny page also includes MediaWiki:Movenologintext. The first is mediawiki default, the later is locally customized. — xaosflux Talk 17:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@User456541: In the future, you can find such messages yourself by putting uselang=qqx in the query string. The ShowMessageNames gadget Add a toolbox link to reload the current page with the system message names exposed in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets will add a link to the sidebar to automatically do so. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:22, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
WP:QQX also shows a way to search all messages for a string. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:57, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

PSA: hiding the Export to Commons button on file description pages

A new "Export to Commons" button was recently added to the UI. If you don't want to see it, then add the following code to your common.css:

#ca-fileExporter {display: none !important;}

-FASTILY 22:39, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@Fastily: I doubt adding that to your common.js would do anything so I changed your link. In my common.css it works like a charm. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 23:00, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing that. I even added it to my own monobook.css before writing this post. I clearly need more coffee...☕️ -FASTILY 02:45, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Two articles on some wikis, single combined article on others.

On enwiki, we've got Intel 8231/8232. On some other wikis, it's split into two articles. For example, hu:Intel 8231 and hu:Intel 8232. These map to Intel 8231/8232 (Q65059248) and (Q5918609). What's the best way to handle this so the interwiki links make sense? The easiest thing from enwiki's point of view would be to make all the other wikis do it just like we do, but it's not our place to tell huwiki how to organize their articles. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:34, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

d:Wikidata:Interwiki conflicts may be able to help. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:34, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
This is a general problem known since the beginning of Wikidata called the Bonnie and Clyde problem. Consider reviewing that page. --Izno (talk) 03:16, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Izno, Thanks for the pointer. That's exactly what I was looking for. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:44, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Why does Wikiquote's Ref template and Wikipedia's Ref template handle commas in the date field differently?

Wikiquote's ref template will parse "July 2 1999" just fine, but our template requires a comma, e.g. "July 2, 1999". Why is that? Can someone fix our template to stop caring so much? I screw this up on my first pass something like 25% of the time. -- Kendrick7talk 00:30, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Kendrick7, please ask at Help talk:Citation Style 1. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 00:39, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! I was a little lost, I'll X-post this over there! -- Kendrick7talk 00:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Archive issue

Sorry, I'm bad at creating archives, so this is probably about my fifth time here. The archives aren't showing on Talk:Alpe d'Huez, and the archiving seems to have started at 2 not 1 (Talk:Alpe d'Huez/Archive 2). I copied this from another article, and presumably screwed it up when I did so- is someone able to fix this for me? Joseph2302 (talk) 11:08, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Without looking at it, I'd say it was a similar situation to User talk:Σ/Archive/2019/July#Odd archiving of Talk:Daniel Day-Lewis. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:39, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Fixed. When setting up the archive template you need to ensure that the counter parameter is set up to 1 (|counter = 1) or this will happen.  Majavah talk · edits 13:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Change in talk page message alert?

Hi greetings, were there any changes in notification system? Normally, when we get a new message in talkpage, it will give a notification and a message "You have got some message" with an yellowish orange background over talk link. Now the feature seems changed. The coloured background has disappeared now. Why these happens? Please help.--PATH SLOPU 08:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Path slopu: I'm also having this issue and I'm using Firefox 79.0. I also posted that I've got the issue on the Teahouse. Thank you. Friend505 10:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@Path slopu: is this only happening in vector? When I'm in monobook I see the highlight, but not in vector. Try this link and see if it shows? — xaosflux Talk 13:46, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Xaosflux, Hi greetings, thank you so much for your reply. I think this is happening only in vector. Because, there were a few problems reported in some wikis regarding the vector skin. Latest mediawiki version (at that time) collapsing TW links, preferences links, etc (some of what affected me) in some wikis. Now fixed. But I do not know if there was any situation in enwiki. Should I report this in phabricator? Please help. Thank you. PATH SLOPU 15:38, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Path slopu, it has been reported in Phabricator already at phab:T259872. the wub "?!" 15:50, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@The wub:, Thank you for your help. Regards. PATH SLOPU 15:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
I honestly think this is better. I've always been slightly panicked every time I see that notice and the new notice is not that easy to miss anyway, but I guess it could be a problem with newer users ignoring warnings. --Trialpears (talk) 16:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
AntiCompositeNumber came up with this css code that restores the color: .mw-echo-alert{background-color:#fc3;color:#000000;border-radius:2px;padding:0.25em 0.8em 0.2em 0.8em;font-weight:normal}. Thought that might be of interest to others. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Page-preview for disambiguation links

What you see in the wikipedia app
What you see on desktop computers

Hello from german wikipedia! Since about one year these preview-feature is default for using wikipedia without an account (with an account open your settings or global settings, section "Reading preferences" and checkmark "Page previews (get quick previews of a topic while reading a page):"). So it is enabled for most of the visitors.

The example page I used is: Müller (lunar crater), the link to see that preview is "For other uses, see Müller." (at the bottom of the page in the app, at the top on the desktop).

In the wikipedia app (upper picture) you see that hint "This title relates to more than one page" and below the beginning of the disambiguation page. Fine!

On Desktop computers you see the same hint and below "View similar pages".

We are wondering, if "This title relates to more than one page" should be replaced by a text telling the user something like "This is an disambiguation page" (your english is sure better!). And on the desktop the lower part is even more confusing. It says "View similar pages" but when proceeding you open the disambiguation and not similar pages. But the more important issue with that text is: Why is more information shown in the wikipedia app with a tiny screen, compared to the desktop with a usually much larger screen. So shouldn't the desktop behave the same way like the app?

When using that magic language qqx I see two system message, both can be found in translation wiki, but I see no such messages for the other page previews, so it smells to be an issue for phabricator, but I am not really sure.

German discussion: de:Wikipedia:Fragen_zur_Wikipedia#Seitenvorschau_bei_BKL-Links … if you want to read it, (it is sadly still short). --Wurgl (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Wurgl seems like a simple inconsistency in the implementation of popups between the app and the website. Implementation for website is here. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 20:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
P.S. 'normal' people have no idea what a disambiguation page is and what it is for. Telling them it is one, without telling them what they can do with it isn't useful to encourage exploration. It is incrowd slang. So I think "this is a disambiguation page" is particularly bad UI for such an interaction. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 20:07, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, this might be worth a Phab ticket? Not sure. --Izno (talk) 21:04, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Well, the text can be changed in translatewiki, this is not a general issue, it is an issue of every single wiki.
But the maybe-phab-issue is why the preview page does not show a preview, instead it shows some (somehow not optimal) message "View similar pages". --Wurgl (talk) 23:24, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Wurgl, sure you can file a ticket for that. But its a minor problem, so I consider the chance of it getting any attention very low. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
SGrabarczuk (WMF), is this something that the mw:Desktop improvements project might want to look at? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:09, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Global email preferences

I've received a number of email notifications from Wikipedias I've never (knowingly) edited, in languages I can't read – Burmese, Annamese and another Indic language I haven't identified (Doteli?). I thought at first that my email address was compromised, but they seem genuine – I did receive a welcome message from a bot on as.wp, presumably because I renamed a user who had edited there. I also got welcome messages on Hindi and Classical Chinese wp, but no email.

To save me spending hours searching, can someone tell me where to adjust my global email preferences to prevent this from happening again? "Email me when a page or a file on my watchlist has changed" is unchecked in my meta:Special:Preferences, but that doesn't seem to be enough. Thanks in advance, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

You can use Special:GlobalPreferences#mw-prefsection-echo. Tick the box directly under Notify me about these events (that will make that section global) and then you can adjust what notifications you will receive on any wikis.  Majavah talk · edits 14:28, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Majavah. If I go to that page and select "Notify me about these events", the tick box for email for the first item ("Talk page message") is already deselected (empty). What do I have to do to make that preference actually apply on all Wikipedias? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, your global preferences will automatically apply to all Wikis that use Wikimedia Global accounts Ed talk! 20:44, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Do as Majavah said: Tick the box directly under Notify me about these events. The box is right under "N" in "Notify". Then save preferences. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Partial block settings question

Say, for example, I partial-block a wide IP range from editing some random page (perhaps User talk:PEIsquirrel) and also disable account creation. Would this effectively prevent account creation from the IP range but allow anonymous contributors to edit? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: Yes definitely, with that page being the exception, ofc. --qedk (t c) 21:44, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Request way to dismiss pending-changes banner

Every time there's an unaccepted change to one of the pending-changes-protected articles on my watchlist, the watchlist page comes up with a big ugly banner at the top that I can't dismiss. Can't someone add an X button on it, or something?

I'm not looking for a css gadget or a "preferences" setting; I think this should be generally available. The behavior I have in mind is that if you dismiss it, it stays dismissed until there's another change to a PC-protected article on the watchlist (could be the same article). --Trovatore (talk) 01:22, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Trovatore: that is supposed to spur reviewers like you on to work on pages you have said you care about. Having reviewers tend to the pending changes queue is an important balance to the protection system. If you are no longer using this, we can remove you from the reviewers group and you won't see these anymore. That being said, to make this a dismissable banner it would need to incorporate a storage object/cookie - so a software feature request would need to be requested, we can't do this on-wiki. — xaosflux Talk 11:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
You could do it on client-side JS with jquery and a cookie or preferences key. When the close button is pushed, use $(".flaggedrevs-pending a")[0].href to get the diff URL of the top-most (newest) revision. Parse the oldid out of that, store that somewhere. Then, on the next page load, if the topmost oldid is the same, hide the bar. Doing it in MediaWiki would require database changes, and would be unlikely to be done anytime soon. If you want it done that way though, phab is thataway. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 00:53, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: I am interested in being notified about pending changes — once per change. I do not like feeling pressured to address a change if I don't want to. I don't think this is an unreasonable attitude. As for the technical issues, I'm not an expert in MediaWiki frontend programming (or, for that matter, frontend programming), but ACN's solution sort of sounded plausible? --Trovatore (talk) 20:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
@Trovatore: you can drop a request at Wikipedia:User scripts/Requests and see if someone wants to write a front-end hack for this using that method - if it is relatively bug free and becomes popular it could eventually be upgraded to a gadget. If it is very very popular, then filling out a request for software development to review and create it on the back end could be done. — xaosflux Talk 01:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

PC failure

How did this edit get automatically accepted? The page is under WP:PC1, and the user isn't autoconfirmed yet. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

The user account was created at 19:56UTC on 4 August so when they made that edit the account was (just) over four days old and had the required number of edits to be pat of the pseudogroup 'autoconfirmed' which is what I understand PC1 checks against. Nthep (talk) 21:17, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Yep, looks like they were autoconfirmed to me too. 18:56 on August 4 to 19:52 on August 8 is 4 days and 56 minutes, and that was their 15th edit. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:01, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Given those edits, I'm not entirely sure why mine is the first warning on the user's talk page. Never mind that this smells of permission-gaming, socking, or both. --Izno (talk) 23:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
First? ClueBot NG had already served one, three hours before yours. I didn't escalate it because the edit that I rolled back was made just one minute after ClueBot's warning, so they may not have had a chance to read and understand it. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Pie chart troubles

Sample pie chart, using the sandbox of {{pie chart}}.

  White (34.8%)
  Hispanic (17.6%)
  Asian (16.4%)
  Black (9.8%)
  Native American (0.5%)
  Pacific Islander (0.4%)
  Two or more races (6.8%)
  International (11.2%)
  Unknown (3.6%)

Note: "Hispanic" refers to Hispanics of any race. All other categories refer to non-Hispanics.

I'm trying to do a few things with {{pie chart}}, but the documentation is lacking and the code is complex (a lot of it seems to be in some CSS sheet I can't find), so I'm running into issues. Apologies for the multi-pronged question here, but I'm having trouble with each of these:

  1. Adding tooltips: I think it would be a big (hopefully uncontroversial) improvement to the template if hovering the cursor over a slice of the pie would generate a tooltip with the label for that slice. I.e. in the chart at right, hovering over the light blue area would display "Asian (16.4%)". Would someone better at HTML than me be able to look into that at {{pie chart/slice}}?
  2. Changing box width: I'd like to increase the width of the box a little to give me more room for the caption/legend without using up multiple lines. There's a |style= parameter, but it's undocumented, and using the basic |style=width:300px isn't working. (|style=color:red did change the caption text color, so it's doing something.)
  3. Footer line breaks: In the chart at right, I'm using a parameter I added to the sandbox to display the footer about Hispanics. This is more subtle, but there's a small extra space below the footer that shouldn't be there, and I can't figure out how to get it to go away without doing this, which causes the footer to be squished up against the legend. Here's an example of that:
Extended content

Sample pie chart, using the second sandbox of {{pie chart}}. Note the squished space between the footer and legend but appropriate space below the legend.

  White (34.8%)
  Hispanic (17.6%)
  Asian (16.4%)
  Black (9.8%)
  Native American (0.5%)
  Pacific Islander (0.4%)
  Two or more races (6.8%)
  International (11.2%)
  Unknown (3.6%)
Note: "Hispanic" refers to Hispanics of any race. All other categories refer to non-Hispanics.

Could anyone help me with one or all of these things?

By the way, the template has over 3000 transclusions, so if there's not a reason it's being kept at semi-protection, it and {{pie chart/slice}} should probably be template-protected. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 04:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sdkb: IMO, semi-protection is about right for only 3000 transclusions. Anyway, I have some ideas on how to fix your 3 issues; I'm working on coding them now. Jackmcbarn (talk) 05:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
So I unsuccessfully tried to get tooltips working in the sandbox. If you hover over your first example now, you'll see tooltips, but they'll be mostly wrong. I think the best course of action is to replace that whole mess of CSS hacks with something based on mw:Extension:Graph. Jackmcbarn (talk) 05:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Here's a quick proof-of-concept to show that the extension is capable of doing that:
Jackmcbarn (talk) 06:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Sigh. Or not. It works in preview but not for real, unlike on :( Jackmcbarn (talk) 06:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Good news: I think once phab:T242855 is done, it'll actually work here, like it does on I guess this is on hold until that's done. Jackmcbarn (talk) 06:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Jackmcbarn, ack, well, thanks for trying. I noticed on the talk page that there is a template that creates a pie chart from mw:Extension:Graph, but it doesn't look very good—it just outputs an image file, I think, and the image file includes the legend, which presents accessibility and other issues. At mw:Extension:Graph#Charts examples, I notice that it's also able to change color when you hover over a section, which I would love (it doesn't really add much functionality, but it makes it feel a lot more interactive and 2010s rather than 2000s).
Were you or anyone else able to figure anything out regarding the other two issues? {{u|Sdkb}}talk 08:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@Sdkb: The "just outputs an image file" problem is what I think phab:T242855 will fix. I think I'll be able to fix your other two issues even in the existing template; I'll try to do that later today. Jackmcbarn (talk) 16:53, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@Sdkb: Okay, point 2 is fixed, both in the sandbox and live. You can now pass radius=150 to get what you want. Still working on point 3. Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:12, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@Sdkb: And point 3 is fixed too in the sandbox, via Special:Diff/972030490. I think that's it until that Phabricator ticket gets resolved then; let me know if there's anything else I can do. Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:45, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Jackmcbarn, looks beautiful; thanks so much! I implemented/documented the footer parameter as well. Having this template in better shape is going to be very useful for pretty much every demographics article on Wikipedia, most of which currently still use tables for ethnicity/other types of data. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 20:44, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

A template is not rendering properly

There seems to be something wrong with how transclusions of Template:ITN candidate are not being rendered properly on the July 2020 archive of ITNC. The transclusions work properly until the subheader for the nomination of the Hagia Sophia (which was a controversial topic at the time, but failed to make an appearance on the Main Page). From that subheader until the bottom of the page, the names of the templates that were attempted to be transcluded are the ones showing up instead of what was intended to be shown there. I checked some other archive pages, such as this and this, and the same error just appears at random. There are only a few instances when, with the exception of AnomieBOT, a handful of other editors or bots edited those archive pages. Where is the error? LSGH (talk) (contributions) 07:07, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It was in Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded like currently 7 [22] other monthly archives. I fix July 2020 by omitting transclusion of the 31 daily Current events pages to avoid breaking Wikipedia:Template limits#Post-expand include size.[23] It now happens to use 99.95% of the allowed limit [2,096,064/2,097,152 bytes]. It barely works currently but may break with any edit to one of the used templates. I haven't fixed the other 7 archives. PrimeHunter (talk) 07:49, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. I wonder if the bot's method of archiving can be tweaked to make it the default way to move those templates? LSGH (talk) (contributions) 09:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

mapframe / GeoJSON problem

Could somebody who understands GeoJSON take a look at Van_Cortlandt_Park#Roads. It's displaying, "<mapframe>: The JSON content is not valid GeoJSON+simplestyle". -- RoySmith (talk) 15:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The documentation for {{Maplink}} is vague, but |type= was missing. The template should capture that error and display a helpful error message. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:17, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-33

16:06, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Where should instruction pages for gadgets be?

I assume this would be the right place to ask this: Since this script is in the "Browsing" section on the "Gadgets" tab of "Preferences", specifically the line that says:

Require confirmation before performing rollback on mobile devices (documentation)

...Wouldn't that make this page a gadget, and thus should be moved to the "Wikipedia:" namespace? (Pinging MusikAnimal, obviously.) Steel1943 (talk) 21:57, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Doesn't really matter. If MA is the one maintaining it, I don't see a reason that it can't be in their userspace. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 22:06, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
What I'm getting at is that from my knowledge, gadgets are not supposed to be in user space since they, in turn, are not available for the community to maintain and are exclusive to the user hosting the script ... making them just regular user scripts and not gadgets. From my perspective, the resolution here would to either move it as stated or remove it from the gadget menu. To compared, when XFDcloser became a gadget, the respective instruction page was moved from User:Evad37/XFDcloser to Wikipedia:XFDcloser. The current state of the User:MusikAnimal/confirmationRollback-mobile makes it seem something got skipped ... either there was no discussion about this script and it was added to the gadget menu ... something is not right. Steel1943 (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Everything looks proper to me. Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 135#Rollback confirmation was the discussion that made this a gadget hosted at VPT as prescribed with a clear consensus for this gadget. The code is also properly hosted in the MediaWiki namespace. I believe moving documentation to Wikipedia space is common, but not required so no actual issue here. --Trialpears (talk) 22:19, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
...That's interesting. But yes, it being "common" is why I see the issue. Steel1943 (talk) 22:24, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
initial announcement and discussion gadget creation. There's no requirement that gadgets even have documentation, let alone being picky about what namespace it's in. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 22:21, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
...That's bullocks, but it is what it is, even if it doesn't match precedence of the aforementioned situation. Steel1943 (talk) 22:24, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@Steel1943: The gadget itself isn't in user space. It lives in MediaWiki space at MediaWiki:Gadget-confirmationRollback-mobile.js like all other gadgets. It's only the documentation that's in user space. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:25, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: I get that since it was the same scenario with XFDcloser, even before the instruction page was moved to the "Wikipedia:" namespace. I'm just wondering about, and concerned with, the fact that the placement of the instruction pages are not consistent ... since consistency can help readers locate what they are trying to find here ... Steel1943 (talk) 22:29, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, I guess that is a good point now that I think about it some more. We probably should move the documentation then. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:30, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
I know we don't usually do this with pages in the "User:" namespace, but per the above, since this discussion is starting to go into WP:RM territory, I'll be placing a move request on User talk:MusikAnimal/confirmationRollback-mobile here in a few. Steel1943 (talk) 22:35, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Ugh! I just completed my RM request for the page, but then found that the {{Requested move}} template returns an error if it is set up to request moving a page in the "User" namespace. Grand. Either way, for the record, here was the rationale I stated for the move:

I do not know of any specific guideline that states the following, but I'm requesting the move for the following reason: In my experiences, most instruction page for gadgets listed in the "Gadgets" tab of the "Preferences" menu have their instruction pages moved out of the user namespace. And to me, this makes sense for the following reason: If a script's instruction page is in the "Wikipedia:" (or some other non-"User:" namespace), it is a gadget and thus the script can be freely edited and/or maintained by the community, whereas an instruction page in the "User:" namespace is a user script that is supposed to be only edited and maintained by the editor whose user page is the root page of the instruction page. For me, seeing this consistency helps me figure out if the script associated with an instruction page (and, in fact, the instruction page itself) can be modified by the community as a gadget, or restricted to the hosting editor themselves with it being a non-gadget user script. Compare this to what occurred with XFDcloser: At first, it represented a user script as a subpage of Evad37 at User:Evad37/XFDcloser, but once there was consensus to promote the respective user script to "gadget" status, the script and the instruction page were moved out of the "User:" namespace, with the script going to the "MediaWiki:" namespace, and the instruction/information page going to the "Wikipedia:" namespace.

...I suppose that I'll check with Wbm1058 to see if RMCD bot would be able to process a move request in the "User:" namespace properly (pinged them on purpose, of course), and then figure out what the next close of action would be. Steel1943 (talk) 23:09, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Why wouldn't you wait until the volunteer who spent a long time developing a gadget and its documentation has a chance to respond? Johnuniq (talk) 23:45, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Why couldn't they have the opportunity respond in a RM request if they aren't able to do so here in a timely manner? Also, this is more trying to establish a precedence for where gadgets' instruction pages should be, which is exclusive from the instruction page's and gadget's creator. I mean, let's say MusikAnimal says something like "No big deal, I'll move it to the "Wikipedia:" namespace"; that doesn't establish precedence or any form of consensus, and such a discussion to determine where gadgets' instruction pages should be located would happen again at a later time ... when I'm trying to have it now and nip it in the bud. Steel1943 (talk) 23:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Some people don't understand common courtesy and the rest of us have to tolerate it, although we don't have to remain silent. Johnuniq (talk) 00:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
I apologize, but I see your concern as apples and oranges per what I stated above. Sure, it would be nice if MusikAnimal responds on some manner to this, especially since it's a page in their user since, but it's not required per ... everything I have already said. Steel1943 (talk) 00:10, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm not keen on the idea of this kind of infringement on a user's space. You don't really need to move the documentation; just copy it and give attribution if need be. This is out-of-scope for requested moves – we've already got a big enough backlog with the stuff that's in scope for me to want to add more stuff to it. – wbm1058 (talk) 00:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
@Wbm1058: Thanks for your response. I think at this point, I was more or less just seeing if it was technically possible ... and probably not trying to se if I'm actually going to do it or not, as this conversation is going ... Steel1943 (talk) 01:11, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello all! Apologies for the late reply. I was away from the computer all weekend. I have boldly removed the link to the documentation altogether. This is a very simple gadget that frankly doesn't require detailed explanation. The description says everything you need to know. The current documentation doesn't do much beyond claim ownership, advertise other related scripts I wrote, and explain how to install it in your common.js -- all things that I probably wouldn't put in the Wikipedia namespace documentation. Instead I've modified WP:ROLLBACK to make note of the gadget, and cleaned up the comments at MediaWiki:Gadget-confirmationRollback-mobile.js. I'm perfectly fine not having my name behind this gadget; it maybe took 15 minutes to write and there's not much involved for maintenance that any other JS-savvy editor couldn't fix. I hope this satisfies your concerns. Kind regards, MusikAnimal talk 20:14, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Admin highlighter

Does anyone know of a reliable admin highlighting tool? I found User:Theopolisme/Scripts/adminhighlighter, but the {{subst:js| results in an error message at common.js, and I don't want to muck anything up. Also, shouldn't this be a Gadget? Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:15, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb: That error is just from the code editor, since it's for generic JavaScript and doesn't understand wiki markup. Once you save the page, the PST will replace it with valid JavaScript. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: Ahh, thanks for helping the technologically incompetent! Face-smile.svg Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Not relevant if you're happy, but FYI there are a handful at Wikipedia:User scripts/List#Discussion-oriented. ~ Amory (utc) 00:13, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
[in infomercial voice] Sick of highlighters? Want to know when someone's a Checkuser, or a Steward, or an Arb, or or or or or? Try User:Mdaniels5757/markAdmins! The perfect solution to all of your wikiproblems! Void where prohibited. Performed on closed course. Some exclusions may apply.Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Wrong history merge

A rejected draft's history has been merged into the history of an article I created. The creator of the draft appears to have created the autopatrolled article even though this is incorrect. The article is 2020–21 ŠK Slovan Bratislava season.--Sakiv (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

This may be easily fixable with the "unmerge" button at the merge log entry. If not, then the steps at WP:HISTSPLIT will be needed. Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: I don't think it can be done easily. The other way is needed. Thanks--Sakiv (talk) 22:40, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Rollback option

Is there an option to turn off and on rollback? I like the privilege of having it. Especially on reverting to another revision. It's useful. But on mobile devices (which I am stuck on for having only for now) it's been an embarrassing mine field ticking bomb lately. I accidentally rollback too much and I kind of panic and undo without explanation sometimes. So when I use mobile devices touch screen I need it off but temporarily if possible. Jhenderson 777 19:52, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Jhenderson777, You could try User:Mr. Stradivarius/gadgets/ConfirmRollback. Adam9007 (talk) 19:58, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jhenderson777: You can enable the confirmationRollback-mobile gadget ((D)Require confirmation before performing rollback on mobile devices) in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets to get a warning before you use it on mobile. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:00, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Ok I will see what can be done. I just know the “no” button on confirming I want to rollback hardly ever works for me. Jhenderson 777 20:05, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
You may ask at WP:PERM/R to have the rollbacker right voluntarily revoked; and if you are judged to be in good standing they should reinstate it upon application. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:43, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
To have it revoked though due to a “no” button not doing what it should seems a bit harsh. Definitely when rollback been helpful to undo vandalism etc. Jhenderson 777 21:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jhenderson777: There's also User:MusikAnimal/rollbackTouch which hides the rollback link on mobile, rather than adding a confirmation. I haven't used it, so I don't know for sure if it works, but it's there. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 21:40, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Jhenderson777, the easiest way to at least hide the rollback link is to edit your common.css and add .mw-rollback-link { display:none } - it works for me on mobile Ed talk! 22:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Jhenderson777 Are you using the mobile site on mobile? Because I see no undo or rollback links there. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 22:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
In answer of the question. Not a big fan of using mobile version. When editing I try use desktop version when I can. Jhenderson 777 23:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Technical Wishes: FileExporter and FileImporter become default features on all Wikis

Max Klemm (WMDE) 09:13, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

So @Max Klemm (WMDE): the documentation says Each wiki is responsible for their own configuration file - but it doesn't say where a community will control that, it is referencing files at mw:Extension:FileImporter/Data/en.wikipedia - which would be mainained by the mediawiki community? — xaosflux Talk 11:25, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi @Xaosflux:, I am not sure if I understand your question. Yes, mw:Extension:FileImporter/Data/en.wikipedia is the configuration page for en.wikipedia. For a configuration page to work it must be a subpage of mw:Extension:FileImporter/Data. If you want to discuss changes of the configuration file with the community, I would imagine doing it on the talk page of the configuration file. I hope this helps. -- For the Technical Wishes Team: Max Klemm (WMDE) (talk) 11:48, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
@Max Klemm (WMDE): with the pages not being actually on our project, we are subject to the editors of that project - the administrators of that project, vandals on that project etc. We won't know if they change (because we'd have to go visit a watchlist on another project), and won't be able to enforce project level governance. We wouldn't expect our editors to have to go follow a discussion on another project either. I'm actually surprised this isn't being controlled on commons - as the controls in that file are really about what commons will accept to their project. — xaosflux Talk 12:50, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Conceptually, we would normally expect mediawikiwiki to house documentation, not running configuration. — xaosflux Talk 13:55, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
I actually think this kind of configuration should be outside a wiki's daily control, but barring moving it entirely to source, Commons makes much more sense. Or even here. (I understand reticence to moving it here.) --Izno (talk) 15:40, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
@Izno: I'd think commons' mediawiki space would be ideal, possibly as a nice json page. — xaosflux Talk 15:52, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
MediaWiki space would be reasonable. --Izno (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Is there an easy undo? Arguing about local files is a chronic problem where good editors have reasons to keep files at enwiki. Trolls and misguided users with nothing else to do could quickly irritate a lot of content creators. Johnuniq (talk) 23:49, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Johnuniq, Deletion works just as well as for any other method of moving files to Commons. Just as a note though, {{Keep local}} only prevents the deletion of the local file. Files tagged with keep local for non-copyright reasons can and will be copied to Commons. This isn't really that different from when we linked CommonsHelper from {{move to commons}} (before it broke). --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 00:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Are you saying it's copy rather than "move files from your local wiki to Wikimedia Commons"? That makes sense since import certainly does not affect the source wiki. Johnuniq (talk) 04:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
From reading the documentation which doesn't clearly answer the question, it seems like the "user rights" subsection and the following section imply that the local file is not automatically deleted. One can tag it for deletion or an admin can delete it (and we already have a process and rules for doing that: WP:CSD#F8), but it's not an automatic consequence of importing.

Regarding the configuration, why it is not in the MediaWiki: namespace where extension configuration things usually go? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:39, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Max Klemm (WMDE): any feedback on the comments about why the config for this is on mediawiki wiki in normal pages? @Jo-Jo Eumerus: I think the "user rights" thing is a bit of hack to try to have the user have a non-trival account before uploading to commons? They don't need any special rights on the originating wiki to upload to commons after all. 90% of the work when this extension is used is on the commonswiki side. — xaosflux Talk 13:36, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Deletion reason being drawn from the wrong wiki

I think that the deletion summary bit needs fixing. I did try it out at File:Green River Valley.jpg and File:Tree Kangaroos.jpg and the deletion summary does not reference WP:CSD#F8 at all. I did try to find the message but from checking MediaWiki:Fileimporter-delete-summary it looks like the enwiki deletion summary is being drawn from commons:MediaWiki:Fileimporter-delete-summary instead even if the deletion is on enwiki. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: The wikitext looks the same to me; it just uses the {{SITENAME}} magic word. Looking at the source ([28]), it's not clear to me which wiki the summary comes from. Perhaps a (very quick) experiment is in order? —Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
OK, let's try this. I've made MediaWiki:Fileimporter-delete-summary and will try out to move File:Screenshot 2020-08-11 Preferences - Wikipedia.png to Commons with deletion of the local copy. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Seems like it didn't use the enwiki summary. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Opened a phabricator thread about this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@Mdaniels5757: Note that the source file you linked is of FileImporter and that extension is not installed on this wiki but it's on Commons. That's why it's grabbing the message from there. To correctly fetch the enwiki's message (or any client wiki for that matter) it needs to be queried from the API just like how the remote deletion action is being achieved. – Ammarpad (talk)

List of people who died climbing Mount Everest table in Android app

(Crossposted from Help Desk) The wikitable in the "Fatalities" section List of people who died climbing Mount Everest article is not showing correctly in the Android app (OnePlus 7 Pro), but displays fine if I open it in Chrome on the same phone. I'm not sure if this is an issue with the app or the formatting of the table itself, but if anyone knows of a solution, it would be greatly appreciated. TheMrP (talk) 17:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@TheMrP: this is because of the usage of {{row numbers}}, which doesn't seem to be compatible with the Parsoid output. See also: Template_talk:Row_numbers#Template_doesn't_work_(at_all)_on_mobile_appTheDJ (talkcontribs) 10:14, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

"Edit" button won't work

Whenever I click the "edit" button (NOT the "Edit" tab near top of page) on Template:Civil rights movement, it takes me here. I don't know why nor how to fix it. Mitchumch (talk) 03:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mitchumch: Fixed (Special:Diff/972262511). Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:02, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@Mitchumch: This edit caused the breakage; the value of the |title= parameter can be anything you like (within reason) but the value of the |name= parameter must be exactly equal to the template's own name (minus the Template: prefix), unredirected. If left alone, it would have shown up in Wikipedia:Database reports/Invalid Navbar links on the next run of that report, as a result of which I would have fixed it in early September. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Problem in Template:Tone

Template seems to work fine when used, but on its own page displays a bunch of bogus instances of "‹The template Tlc is being considered for merging.›" If anyone understands what is going on there, please fix it! - Jmabel | Talk 03:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 10#Template:Tlc is going on. I'm wondering whether we should just noinclude that message. Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:03, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
The direct cause is this edit. As far as Template:Tone is concerned, it only affects how the template documentation is displayed - the operation of {{Tone}} itself is entirely unaffected. The message is showing in the doc because the doc uses {{tlc}} frequently, in constructs like {{tlc|Tone|section|{{((}}subst:DATE{{))}}}}. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:03, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

{{DISPLAYTITLE}} template

Hello, I tried to change the title of my own user page using {{DISPLAYTITLE}} template, But It didn't work out. But It works perfectly in bnwiki. I have learnt that there's an certain restriction for doing so in this wiki questioning here. I am wondering that this feature maybe disabled for mainspace article, why should it be disabled for userpages? Userpages are absolutely for users. Does it matter that the user have a different title for his userpage or not? If not please change it for only userpages. Thanks. A. Shohag (ping|Talk) 06:57, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

mw:Manual:$wgRestrictDisplayTitle cannot be customized by namespace. I also think customized signatures cause enough confusion about usernames. I wouldn't add to it by allowing false userpage names. PrimeHunter (talk) 07:56, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
ShohagS, "Does it matter that the user have a different title for his userpage or not?" Yes. it matters. Your username is your username. When people pretend it is something else, it is confusing for everyone else, and potentially can be used by bad actors to pretend they are someone they are actually not. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 07:59, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • You can change the display title of your user page, but only to alter the display formatting. The text itself cannot be changed. I have just changed my user page as a test. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 08:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter:Alright people, you got plenty reason. My signature actually links to my userpage and part of my signature contains username. And one more thing, please don't take offence, If one can't find out the difference between an page title and url or the username, then I barely doubt that how could he understand the wiki codes! Thanks. A. Shohag (ping|Talk) 09:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@GhostInTheMachine, PrimeHunter, and TheDJ: In HTML, I can import custom css just by <link href="url">, but I am afraid that I don't know whats the code in wiki to do so here. Is there any code to import custom css and to apply them? Please notify me. A. Shohag (ping|Talk) 14:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@ShohagS: what are you trying to do with CSS? If you want to apply some CSS to some elements on your userpage, you can use templates and WP:TEMPLATESTYLES; or you can use in-element styling directly. In unrelated matters, it doesn't hurt anything, but making a link to Template:Ping in your signature doesn't really help anyone else. — xaosflux Talk 15:05, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: I actually learnt it here. I don't understand you, people. Some of you uses some and some says thats not good you shouldn't use it. Why? A. Shohag 15:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
And one more thing, WP:TEMPLATESTYLES shows error while linking an external css from my github. What about this? A. Shohag 15:17, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@ShohagS: mw:Extension:TemplateStyles requires "sanitized CSS" - in general, you can't load external CSS in to pages and make other people use it. You can customize your own personal CSS (e.g. User:ShohagS/common.css) - which only applies to you. Only certain site administrators can update broad CSS pages that load for others. — xaosflux Talk 15:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:That doesn't do my work. I have even a css script on User:ShohagS/style.css and there's some customized tag with different fonts. Will you please tell me How can I import that on any wiki page and can use those tag accordingly? Thanks. A. Shohag 08:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Only User:ShohagS/common.css will load for you automatically, User:ShohagS/style.css won't ever load since there is nothing to call it. Your common css will load on every page you view. Try loading it up with more styles. Keep in mind, you can really only use it to style elements that exist - you can't add your own elements in to encyclopedia articles for example. — xaosflux Talk 11:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:"you can't add your own elements in to encyclopedia articles for example". That's what I needed for this long. Its means that I can't call my own css anywhere else in wiki. But I can only change whenever it loads for me. Why? Maybe not to mainspaced articles but what the user pages? One wouldn't love to change his userpage? I don't truly don't understand you much. A. Shohag 11:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@ShohagS: you can use CSS to style existing elements (for yourself) in ways that will help you work on the encyclopedia better or make it more accessible to you, you can use css to help build things like templates that are useful for building the encyclopedia. You can't do things that will change the display for everyone else. See WP:USERPAGE for a description of what the goal of userpages are. You can use inline styling on your userpage elements - but there is nothing you can do that will force someone else to load a css, especially not an external one. — xaosflux Talk 12:24, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I think you made that pretty clear in your previous reply. Thanks. A. Shohag 12:32, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Old notification

I just got this email. The last mention was in 2016. The only activity on the page I can see was an archiving done by a script, or is it something else? (I don't think it is an email lag issue). --Titodutta (talk) 22:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Titodutta, I archived a section using OneClickArchiver. I guess archiving (sometimes or always?) pings linked usernames. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, that might be. An archiving should not trigger a notification, is not it so? The mentioned script-creator's account seem to be blocked, that's why I am not sure to notify on their talk page. Regards. --Titodutta (talk) 22:44, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Whether the archiving edit was made by bot, by script, or entirely manually won't make a difference: notifications are triggered by a new post (which this technically is) bearing the signature of the person making the edit. An archiving edit - such as the one in question, made yesterday - is a cut and paste, they are not given new signatures. Ordinarily, the absence of a new signature means that no notifications should be sent. In this case, the archiving edit was made by a person (Another Believer) whose sig also appears in the archived thread, so I guess that the notifications system doesn't check that the associated timestamp is recent. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 05:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Problem with Infobox: Russian district

On Yuzhnoportovy District, I have updated the infobox to set the parameters pop_latest = 74,729 with the pop_latest_date = 2019, but the infobox still shows:


  • Estimate (2018): 74,376

This number does not appear anywhere in the source text, so why is the infobox reporting information different than entered in its parameters? WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Because Wikidata. {{Infobox Russian district}} defers to data from Wikidata where it exists and is dated for 2018-01-01. | pop_est_as_of = {{#if: <!-- wikidata pop as of 01.01.18 is set --> {{wikidata|property|raw|P1082|P585=2018-01-01}} | 2018 | <!-- use template paramenter --> {{{pop_latest_date|}}} }} ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @WikiDan61: welcome to the world of wikidata integration - that value is at wikidata:Q1963417 - so please update it there if you know the right value to help anyone relying on that - as for as the template parameter - the local values generally should override the wikidata values, but I don't have time to dig in to that template syntax right now. — xaosflux Talk 13:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. I've updated the relevant WikiData. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Use different textual display in a template at the bottom of the page

In Template:Israeli political parties, there's a party called "Center Party". The problem is that some articles with this template use the spelling "centre". Is there any way to fix the template only on those pages, while displaying "center" in articles which use the American spelling? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Just because an article prefers a spelling of a word, does not change the name of a party does it ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 18:44, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

OpenStreetMap issue

A reader has contacted OTRS through OTRS ticket # 2020072010003284 to advise of issues with OpenStreetMap, for instance here. They advise that they can see the location pins but that the map itself renders only as pink squares. They've provided the following element inspect. They're encountered the issue on Chrome, Firefox, and IE.

@Dvorapa and Para: - I believe you're the maintainers. Is there any advice we can provide to the reader?

[Report Only] Refused to load the script '' because it violates the following Content Security Policy directive: "default-src 'self' 'unsafe-eval' 'unsafe-inline' blob: data: filesystem: mediastream: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * wss://". Note that 'script-src-elem' was not explicitly set, so 'default-src' is used as a fallback.

Best, Darren-M talk 12:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Darren-M, I'm unsure about the pink squares, but I know the error you linked to above is related to mw:Requests_for_comment/Content-Security-Policy, and shouldn't cause any issues. Ed talk! 12:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The above is not an error. It is only an informational warning ("[Report Only]"). It should be unrelated to pink squares. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 05:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Darren-M, that is a community maintained project. The pink squares mean that the tiles for the map could not be downloaded from the servers of OpenStreetMap (not sure why that tool doesn't use wikimedia maps...). The [Report only] thing is not related and not a concern. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 18:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, Thank you. If the report is a red herring, do we have further insight into why the map tiles can't be downloaded? Any known issues? Darren-M talk 19:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Darren-M, no. maybe his wifi was down, or maybe it was particularly busy with Openstreetmap or maybe they were just down, or maybe his country blocks openstreetmap. We just don't know, we don't track it and it's a non-essential non-WMF service so it is allowed to not be available. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 19:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

In Wikiversity certain combination of letters doesn't work

Good morning,

when I wanted to include a note in my article and wrote <ref group="note"> the combination of p and = could not be written. It was replaced by different character. My browser is Microsoft Edge (new version). Thanks in advance. Chomsky (talk) 14:37, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Chomsky: I can't seem to duplicate your problem there, see v:User:Xaosflux/sandbox. This could be an input customization - what is your input language set to? If not English, could you try English? Are you using the source editor or the visual editor? — xaosflux Talk 15:34, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Some browser extensions/add-ons will convert certain text strings into an emoticon character, for example :) can become 🙂 - is there an emoticon represented by p=? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Face-tongue.svg. --Izno (talk) 17:56, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I had to select "Use native keyboard" on the upper right corner of my editing window. Thank you. Chomsky (talk) 06:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

If edit causes an error, warn the user

Currently the software will show if an article contains errors. This is nice. However if I make an edit that causes errors, there is no warning. Only if I preview the changes then I can see the problem. I think this needs to change. It would mean fewer errors would be made for other people to catch and fix later. --Palosirkka (talk) 09:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Palosirkka, WP:TWWPK Ed talk! 09:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Change to Chrome rendering of PNGs causing blurry formulas

My Chrome installation (Win 10) just updated (it tends to be a bit behind because I'm lazy about closing it out completely), and <math>...</math> formulas suddenly look very blurry, to the point of being really terrible to look at. Poking around, I found this StackOverflow post, which offered a CSS suggestion. I was able to get that working here in my common.css with:

   image-rendering: -webkit-optimize-contrast;

This does improve formulas for me, as they appeared to be before, but I don't know how robust/hacky this is, if there are better options, or if something like this is worth adding sitewide for non-logged in users, because the current situation is pretty rough for reading math articles otherwise. Thanks, –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 17:31, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Deacon Vorbis: In Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering, does changing "Math" from "PNG images" to "MathML with SVG or PNG fallback (recommended for modern browsers and accessibility tools)" help? Maybe instead of that CSS hack, we should consider making that preference the new default for everyone. Jackmcbarn (talk) 06:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: Ugh, that was it. I know there was a reason I changed it at some point previously, but I don't remember why precisely. And since it always looked fine, I never thought about it again until this. It feels silly having oodles of unused MathML being downloaded when I don't use a browser that supports it, but oh well. Thanks for the simple check that I forgot about. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

New look?

I see French Wikipedia looks different now. Is this idiocy slated to come to other wikis too? (talk) 18:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Please see mw:Reading/Web/Desktop_ImprovementsTheDJ (talkcontribs) 18:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Yech 👎👎 (talk) 19:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
How can it be overridden? Ruslik_Zero 21:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
See the mw page DJ linked to above; its in the section Deployment plan and timeline. Nthep (talk) 21:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
You can lose the huge white stripes left and right with this CSS rule:
.skin-vector-max-width .mw-page-container {
  min-width: none;
  max-width: none;
  padding: 0;
To alter for French Wikipedia only, it goes in fr:Special:MyPage/vector.css (if you have one) or in fr:Special:MyPage/common.css (if you don't); or to alter for all WMF sites, put it in m:Special:MyPage/global.css. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:22, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I realize this is probably a stupid question but is there anyway to override this width issue for an anonymous IP user? Even on a per-use, non-permanemt, basis? (talk) 17:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
You can use your browser's developer tools to remove the skin-vector-max-width class from the <body> tag. If you want that effect permanently you can also use a browser extension like Greasemonkey to do that on every page load (see top of my global.js).  Majavah talk · edits 17:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you so much, the developer tools deletion method you described worked well for me. (talk) 17:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
There's also user styles on Firefox-type browsers via Stylus (FF 57+, IceCat and other Quantum-based), Stylem (Pale Moon) and Stylish 2.1.1 on Classic Addon Archive (Waterfox). Don't get Stylish newer than 2.1.1 because it contains malware. (talk) 18:28, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

How do I archive all of the references in the article Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis?

So the article Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis apparently has more references than are allowed to archive. Is it possible to request that a bot archive all of the references, please? I tried the "Fix Dead Links" tool thorough the article's Page/History. The tool told me there are too many dead links for that tool to work. Factfanatic1 (talk) 17:14, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

And as an additional thought, I also ran the "Fix Dead Links", and it told me it was too large, but to try running a bot. I clicked on the link it gave to run the bot. The bot said it completed. Absolutely nothing changed in the article history, so maybe something else needs to be done there. — Maile (talk) 18:44, 13 August 2020 (UTC)


I've been working on a long list that stretches across two pages, and I'm wondering if there's any danger of going over any MediaWiki or browser limits if I combine the two. User:Dank/Sandbox/9 is roughly the size of the combined list ... it loads slowly, but otherwise seems okay. Anyone see a problem? - Dank (push to talk) 17:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Dank, a 250KB page isn't the best idea especially considering the parse time and the effects it might have in terms of performance or just not loading at all on slower systems - most long lists split their content alphabetically Ed talk! 17:48, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Very helpful, thanks. - Dank (push to talk) 17:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
@Dank: As Ed6767 points out, such a page may be a bit slow to load, but it turns out you're actually nowhere near any of the limits. While previewing the page, expand the "Parser profiling data (help) :" section and look at the values inside. Proportionally, the closest value to its limit is the Scribunto running time, which is still less than half of the allowed time, so even if you were to double the size and complexity of that page, it would still render fine, if not quickly. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:16, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. Is Ed correct that for readers with slower connections, the page might time out and not load at all? How about if the page is slightly bigger? (And for people who say "just make the page smaller", that might not be possible ... I'm struggling with FLC requirements here, which will be up to the reviewers.) - Dank (push to talk) 00:28, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Ed6767, To be a little more quantitative, the limit is mediawiki's $wgMaxArticleSize variable. On enwiki, it's apparently set to 2000, which means just about 2 MB.
Long before you run into that hard limit, you'll probably run into performance issues, especially on mobile devices, which may be on networks with very limited bandwidth. In extreme cases, even if the mediawiki software is willing ot handle it, if page load times get too long, all sorts of intermediate systems (caches, prioxies, etc) might time out.
Also, you may possibly run into other limits besides just overall size. Not long ago, there was a case of a long article which included a large number of small images of national flags. It was running into the max number of images allowed on a page, or something like that. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:45, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Okay, thanks, I'll go with two pages instead of one. I don't have any personal preference, I just need to be able to justify my choice to the FLC reviewers, and you guys have given me enough here to do that. - Dank (push to talk) 01:04, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Page views by category?

Hello, is there a way I could see page views by a category? For example, how many page views for every article in the last week with the category violence in sport were viewed. Apologies if I should have asked this at Help Desk. Thanks in advance! AugusteBlanqui (talk) 22:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@AugusteBlanqui: Yes, the Massviews tool can do that for you. the wub "?!" 22:19, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
@The wub: Thanks! AugusteBlanqui (talk) 08:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

class="wikitable aligned linked" for linked country lists with flags

@Magnus Manske: @Ahecht: and anybody else who can help.

Right now the table at the above-linked country list has this:

class="wikitable mw-datatable sortable"

It would be nice to have an "aligned" class that adds align=left to each cell in the first column. In an external stylesheet via class=aligned. Is this possible? It is necessary when style=text-align:right; has been added to the top of the table wikitext in order to align all data to the right.

Also, a class=linked to put internal link brackets around each cell in the first column. Is this possible?

Or if classes are not possible, then adding the options to tab2wiki and/or excel2wiki. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@Timeshifter: It's possible with TemplateStyles. I just created Template:TemplateStyles sandbox/Jackmcbarn/aligned.css. To try it out, put <templatestyles src="Template:TemplateStyles sandbox/Jackmcbarn/aligned.css" /> anywhere in your sandbox page, then add col1-left as a class to the table. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Wow, that's great, Jackmcbarn. I used it in the first table in the sandbox: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox107. Is it OK to use this in articles right now? If so, I would like to change the class name. The current name is confusing, and many people will mess it up. I, like many people, confuse the letter "l" with the number "1". Some fonts are worse than others. How about making it really simple like class=left or class=column-left since it is left aligning the left-most column? Many people will be using this so it needs to be simple. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:46, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@Timeshifter: How about left-align-first-column? In general, longer class names are better to avoid the risk of collision. Anyway, as for using in articles, certainly don't transclude a sandbox page from one, but that code at a more permanent location would be fine to use. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: I like long class names and long template parameter names. Where should this code go? Can you put it there? Once it is set up, I can describe its use at Help:Table. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Timeshifter: see WP:TEMPLATESTYLES - basically you will want to put this on a sub page of a template, and then change your template to incorporate it. — xaosflux Talk 00:53, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: @Jackmcbarn: I read WP:TEMPLATESTYLES, and I understood very little of it. It's above my pay grade. Could someone set up this style sheet for me? See:
User:Timeshifter/Sandbox107#Table without flags and country links
In that upper sandbox table this is what currently aligns the text in all the table cells:
{| class="wikitable mw-datatable sortable col1-left" border=1 style=text-align:right;
<templatestyles src="Template:TemplateStyles sandbox/Jackmcbarn/aligned.css"/>
I put the stylesheet code just below the top wikitext line of the table. It's convenient for later editors to see what is affecting the table. And it allows me and other editors to see the alignment in editing preview even while editing just that one section of the page. I noticed that if I stuck it outside that section then I did not see the left alignment in preview of that section.
Once this stylesheet is set up and described in Help:Table it will be used in thousands of tables, and save people a lot of time. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Timeshifter: template styles is really meant to be a stylesheet for a template, not something that styles raw wikitables. — xaosflux Talk 11:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: @Jackmcbarn: Well then, where can this stylesheet be placed? Its utility should be obvious. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Timeshifter: template styles would normally be used if you made something like Template:TableForThisThing - introducing a new class for use in any wikitable would likely need to go in the site wide css, and not done with templatestyles. So are yo utrying to style a specific table - or any table? — xaosflux Talk 13:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: I would like to be able to use this on any table. How does this get put in sitewide CSS? --Timeshifter (talk) 13:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Timeshifter: you can propose a change at MediaWiki talk:Common.css - see first Wikipedia:Catalogue_of_CSS_classes. If you think this is important enough that all wiki's would have utility for it, you can instead file a feature request to have it bundled on the back end. — xaosflux Talk 14:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: I left a message at MediaWiki talk:Common.css. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:45, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not a fan of TemplateStyles set up solely to align table columns. It's rarely semantic. --Izno (talk) 01:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Izno: How else would you do this? The only other choice I can think of is putting the alignment on every row individually. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: Tables that have first columns left-aligned and the remainder not left-aligned should almost invariably have the first cells marked up as row headers (see MOS:DTT). The existing class plainrowheaders will left-align those row header cells. If there any exceptions to that, then the table can be extracted as a template and transcluded back along with bespoke TemplateStyles associated with that particular template. --RexxS (talk) 22:53, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Timeshifter: Now there's an idea. With tab2wiki, check "First element in a row is a header", or with excel2wiki, check "format first row as header", then just add that class and see if you like the result. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: @RexxS: @Xaosflux: Tab2wiki and Excel2wiki do not add scope=row. Class="wikitable plainrowheaders" does not work without scope=row.
scope=row is not necessary anymore for most tables according to someone who uses screen readers. See talk here:
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial/Archive 2#Are scope=row and scope=column needed nowadays on basic wikitables using class=wikitable?
Help:Table#Scope also points out that scope=row is no longer required by the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines of the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C).
Plus the more difficult this becomes the less likely that editors will bother to align any text in tables beyond class=wikitable which aligns everything to the left of all cells.
I don't care where the CSS is stored. It is only a couple lines. And like I said this class will be used on thousands of tables. So why not put it in Commons.css and remove some other CSS that is not being used, or rarely used. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:15, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
@Timeshifter: The English Manual of Style requires row headers and scope. See WP:HEADERS, MOS:ACCESS #Data tables and MOS:DTT. If you want to change the consensus in those, start an RfC.
If Tab2wiki and Excel2wiki do not add scope=row, then it's about time they were fixed to do so.
Scope is required for tables because we can't assume what the the behaviour of all screen readers will be without it.
For a simple fixed table where the first column contains row headers (the WCAG example), we can be reasonably sure that a screen reader will correctly identify it with or without the scope. However, unlike the tables considered by the WCAG, Wikipedia is a dynamic medium and tables can be modified and changed in ways that break the assumptions made by WCAG. The safest way to ensure that we cover all possible scenarios is to give the guidance that row headers are marked up as row headers and are given the scope=row attribute. There is no example anywhere that I'm aware of where that produces the wrong result.
It is ridiculous to complicate guidance with different scenarios: one guidance for "simple" tables; another guidance for "complex" ones. Editors do not need to have to work out what sort of table they are working with if they have one straightforward piece of guidance as they have now.
Please don't include advice in the help pages that contradicts the MoS. It is not helpful.
Editors have shown themselves capable of following the guidance in MOS:DTT for a decade now, and we have 3,656 featured lists that comply with it, so it's clearly not that difficult to grasp.
It doesn't matter where you think the CSS should be stored. A properly marked up table has no need of your CSS, and I oppose its use anywhere, because I've yet to see any example of where it would be useful. --RexxS (talk) 02:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial is not a guideline, nor a policy. Most tables on Wikipedia don't use scope. And they don't need it according to the real authority, WCAG. Not me, and not you. More info (that you tried to delete today) from Help:Table:
Note: From an April 2020 discussion: Someone using a screen reader wrote the following concerning a simple table (class=wikitable) with and without scope attributes: "FWIW all those tables read identically to me on the latest version of JAWS and a fairly recent version of NVDA."

See: H63: Using the scope attribute to associate header cells and data cells in data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0. It is from the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines of the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). It states:

"For simple tables that have the headers in the first row or column then it is sufficient to simply use the TH elements without scope."

So the scope markup is not needed in simple wikitables using class=wikitable. For other tables see below.

This scope discussion has become offtopic to this thread about making it easier to align the text in tables. This is because people are not going to go back and add scope=row to tables in Wikipedia. Nearly all tables on Wikipedia are simple tables as defined by WCAG above. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:50, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
You state class=wikitable which aligns everything to the left of all cells - this is not true. For header cells, the wikitable class applies the declaration text-align: center; but for data cells, no text alignment is set. By default, with no other styling, most browsers will centre-align header cells and left-align data cells - in fact, I know of none that don't do this. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
@Redrose64: OK. Thanks. So it's the browser that sets the alignment. I did not know that. I use Firefox and everything below the top headers is left aligned. Unless there are some row headers which I don't see often with country tables. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:31, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
@Timeshifter: MOS:DTT is the authoritative guideline and is referenced from MOS:ACCESS #Data tables as the page that it summarises:

... Scope of headers (<code>! scope="col" |</code> and <code>! scope="row" |</code>): This clearly identifies headers as either row headers or column headers. Headers can now be associated to corresponding cells. ("H63: Using the scope attribute to associate header cells and data cells in data tables". Techniques for WCAG 2.0. World Wide Web Consortium. Retrieved 1 January 2011.)

The MoS enjoys project-wide consensus and you are not entitled to use your own preferences for the markup which is clearly defined in the MoS.
The content that you wrote in Help:Table is just your own personal musings and fails to accurately reflect the MoS as it must. The area of MoS is subject to discretionary sanctions, and editors who fail to adhere to expected standards are liable to be sanctioned by any uninvolved admin. The authority here is the consensus of the community, not WCAG, and I've explained to you that tables on Wikipedia are not guaranteed to be as stable as those on other websites that WCAG will be considering.
I've also already made the point that we have decided not to give different advice for different complexity of tables. "Simple" tables work just as well with properly marked up headers and scopes, so the guidance sticks to the simple principle of using them for all tables, rather than asking editors to work out what kind of table they are editing.
This guidance has been in place for at least ten years and your attempts to undermine it are not constructive. All data tables on Wikipedia require headers and scope, and if other projects wish to adopt the same guidance, they are free to do so, but that is not relevant here.
Let me be helpful about this: if an editor adds header/scope markup to a data table, they are making it compliant with the MoS; if an editor removes header/scope markup from a data table, they are liable to be sanctioned. That should make the position clear enough for you. --RexxS (talk) 16:27, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
An admin who uses screen readers disagrees with you. From Help:Table: Note: From an April 2020 discussion: A Wikipedia admin who uses a screen reader wrote the following concerning a simple table (class=wikitable) with and without scope attributes: "FWIW all those tables read identically to me on the latest version of JAWS and a fairly recent version of NVDA."
The same admin in an August 13, 2020 discussion about the same set of tables, but where the row headers were changed to data cells: "There are no problems with those tables, and having the row headers replaced with data cells makes no difference."
The page you keep linking to, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial, has a banner at the top that specifically says it is not a guideline, nor a policy.
Discussion is starting at Help talk:Table. Please let us continue it there. Further discussion here is hijacking of this thread. That, I believe, is against guidelines. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I've worked with Graham87 for a decade to improve accessibility on Wikipedia. Graham does not disagree with me, nor I with him. We all know that for simple tables, JAWS will identify the row header, or even use the first column if there's no markup. That much is not in doubt. What you are are incapable of understanding is that we give guidance suitable for all data tables on Wikipedia, not just one type. Go and look at ] H63]] that you're so fond of. Check the markup in "Example 1: A simple schedule". Why do you maintain it's a good idea to give editors different advice from the WCAG?
MOS:DTAB defers to MOS:DTT for its guidance as well as summarising it, and DTAB mandates headers and scopes. If you think that the guidance in MOS:DTT is optional, try removing the headers and/or scopes from an article, give me the link, and see how long it takes before you're blocked.
I've replied to your misunderstandings of headers, scopes and html5 at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial#Row headers versus data cells in the first column of a simple table
Now, if you want to actually discuss your suggestion about a new class to left align table content, give me an example of where it would be useful. Time to put up or shut up. --RexxS (talk) 00:10, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Graham87 said today that he did not see a problem with the simple tables without scope tags or row headers in the latest table comparisons I created. In comparison to the same tables with scope tags and row headers. See:
RexxS. People are going to continue to ignore your pleas for scope tags and row headers until you show them the complex tables that actually need them. I am trying to figure out which complex tables need those scope tags and row headers.
In the meantime please stop hijacking this thread. This thread is about the thousands of tables on Wikipedia that need data cell text aligned to the right, and 1st column text aligned to the left. Editors are not going to do a lot of work to add scope=row to each cell in a header column just to be able to use class=plainrowheaders on simple tables.
--Timeshifter (talk) 10:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Jackmcbarn, yes, this is the way you have to do this at the table level (still don't have access to HTML col and colgroup after 2 decades woo). I'm stating a dissatisfaction with the naming. Time has not provided a particularly semantic reason for this. I also have an issue with how... lacking in generality this solition is.
Almost as tedious as the inline option is to add a class to each cell and then apply some styles as in Template:TemplateStyles sandbox/Izno/styles.css. You'll note the added semantics which lifts my objection (centered numbers aside :|). This also allows us to standardize the appearance of our tables according to what is in each cell. This approach might also be extended to rows and columns which are totals, for example.
I suppose you could go back the table direction and provide numbered versions of these such that we could target the specific column from the table level. That solution leaves a bad taste in my mouth because then you're dealing with the permutations and loading lots of CSS into the page source even if you might not need styling for a .wt-person-12(col)... (whether that's less or more than the inline version... Probably similar source unless we're talking big tables). --Izno (talk) 02:03, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment. In addition to class=left-align-first-column we will need class=left-align-2nd-column - This is because the first column in a table is often a rank column. And so the column that will need its text aligned to the left will be the 2nd column. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

How exactly do I upload non-free movie posters to Wikipedia?

edit window

I forget, where do we go to request changes to the character-input charts under the edit window? — kwami (talk) 08:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: MediaWiki talk:Gadget-charinsert, I guess. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:10, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, thank you! — kwami (talk) 21:31, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Expensive parser function count puzzle

Inspecting the html source of a preview of {{ill|Vychivka|uk|Вичівка}} in a sandbox shows "Expensive parser function count: 1/500" as expected.

However, {{ill|Vychivka{{!}}Vychivka|uk|Вичівка}} gives 0/500 while its wikitext is essentially identical as seen at Special:ExpandTemplates. Why is this not an expensive function?

This relates to a discussion regarding {{ill}} at Template talk:Interlanguage link#Expensive parser function. Johnuniq (talk) 00:14, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: It's because the template contains {{#ifexist:{{{1|}}}|. When you call it with Vychivka{{!}}Vychivka, that's a bad title, so it knows the answer is "no" without having to do an expensive existence check. When you call it with just Vychivka, it's a valid title, so it does have to do the expensive existence check. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:46, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Very logical, thanks. Johnuniq (talk) 01:16, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Split an inputed argument into two arguments

Can any one help me solve a technical issue at {{SelAnnivAbbr}}? The template is only used in {{Born and died list/sandbox}}. I am trying to accommodate a situation that occurs at Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/August 29 (look next to Ingrid Bergman). Basically, I am trying to make it possible to feed in an argument 1915{{!}}1982 into {{Born and died list/sandbox}}. I want the bar character to be ignored and passed-thru in the first layer ({{Born and died list/sandbox}}) but for the second layer ({{SelAnnivAbbr}}) I want it to interpreted as two different arguments equal to 1915and 1982. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:06, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Coffeeandcrumbs: There's basically two ways to do that: either something horrific with Lua like the now-deleted Module:Eval (which parsed the same wikitext twice), or use the string parser functions to manually look for the pipe and pass both arguments separately by hand. What's your actual overall goal though? There's probably a better way to achieve it. Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:28, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Jackmcbarn, basically I am trying to get:
'''[[Ingrid Bergman]]''' ({{SelAnnivAbbr|bd|1915|1982}})
Ingrid Bergman (b. 1915)
at Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/August 29. But it can happen in the first or middle position, so it is messing up the parameter numbering to have two years.
Here is the basic format for {{Born and died list/sandbox}} I am trying to use:
{{Born and died list| '''[[Abu Taghlib]]''' |d|979| '''[[Ingrid Bergman]]''' |bd|1915{{!}}1982| '''[[Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.]]''' |b|1809}}
But if I do:
{{Born and died list| '''[[Abu Taghlib]]''' |d|979| '''[[Ingrid Bergman]]''' |bd|1915|1982| '''[[Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.]]''' |b|1809}}
I get this:
Because I can't make 1915 and 1982 two separate arguments for {{Born and died list/sandbox}} without that messing up the parameter numbers for the Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.
If the above is too much to understand, I would appreciate it if you gave me pointers on how to use the string parser. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 05:41, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
That seems like way too much work for an extreme edge case. How about something like this?Jonesey95 (talk) 05:43, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Jonesey95, thanks for your help. I figured it out using {{str left}} and {{str rightmost}}. I would have never thought of that until you suggested string parser functions. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 06:08, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

PyWikiBot (or Muninnbot/Toolforge) not flagging bot edits

Schazjmd brought to my attention (here, more than a month ago...) that my bot Muninnbot does not mark its edits as made by a bot. Here's a recent example. Note that Muninnbot has the "bot" account flag but AFAICT this does not impact whether individual edits are flagged as bot-made (some bots do not flag their edits on purpose).

I am not sure why that happens. The code invokes the PyWikiBot method (bot code here) with the documentation-compliant botflag=True option. I looked around the source code of PWB and could not find anything that would be off; I also looked at Phabricator and did not see any related bug (looking at the titles only).

On the one hand, my own code is very simple (only one line makes the actual writing) that I do not see what I could have missed. On the other hand, the balance of probabilities is in favor of a mistake on my end rather than a PWB feature being broken for years without anyone realizing. Before I file a bug report on the PWB Phabricator, an extra set of eyes would be appreciated. TigraanClick here to contact me 14:05, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@Tigraan: just to clarify/confirm for you: when editing via the API you must assert the "bot flag" with each edit, being in the "bot user group" grants your account the "bot permission", which allows it to flag edits with the "bot flag". (c.f. mw:Manual:Bots#Bot_right,_group,_and_flag). Additionally, you need to not restrict yourself from using the bot access on your authentication method (be it OAuth/BotPasswords/Etc). — xaosflux Talk 15:13, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
As Xaosflux alludes to, double check that your OAuth or BotPasswords has access to the bot grant, Pywikibot mark edits as bot by default if the account has bot permissions. Legoktm (talk) 09:37, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Suspicious "reference" link on articles about politics in Belarus

In the "References" section of several WP articles about politics in Belarus, a bare URL link to a recent Sky News article appears as the first or second reference. But the "jump up" next to the number 1. or 2. does not work and there is no reference with that number in the text of the article. And in the text edit version of the page, the link does not appear.

The Sky News article is "Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya calls for end to violence in Belarus as election fallout continues", dated 14 August. WP articles in which the link appears include 1995 Belarusian referendum, 1996 Belarusian referendum, 2020 Belarusian presidential election and Human rights in Belarus.

What is going on? It looks suspiciously like an advert inserted to lead Wikipedia readers to Sky News. Should it be there at all? And if not, how can it be removed?

Best wishes, Motacilla (talk) 09:25, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Motacilla, it is collapsed inside the vertical articles series box in the top right of the articles —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:30, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Ah! Thankyou! But why is it there, and should it be there at all? Motacilla (talk) 09:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Since it's in {{Politics of Belarus}} (it was added in this edit), try Template talk:Politics of Belarus. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:48, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
@Motacilla: I have removed the reference already due to both the confusion it was causing, and the fact the reference given didn't actually confirm the dispute. Template:Politics of Venezuela has a similar disputed presidency and makes do without any reference. the wub "?!" 09:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Thankyou. My discombobulation on the matter is at an end! Motacilla (talk) 09:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Hide redirects when searching contributions?

Is it possible to add an option for hiding edits to redirects when searching user contributions, similar to the current options to only show latest revisions, page creations, or non-minor edits? BD2412 T 05:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Already requested at phab:T119072. – Ammarpad (talk) 10:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, that's it. Thanks. BD2412 T 19:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Adding new feature to template

How do I add a "Show/Hide" option to Template:Sidebar person/US President comparable to Template:Campaignbox? Mitchumch (talk) 19:13, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Please, see Help:Collapsing. Ruslik_Zero 19:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Help with a bot/tool/automated job in SqWiki

Hey everyone! Can someone help me fix a problem in SqWiki? (I'm an admin there.)

I'm keeping the notice short since this is not exclusively related to EnWiki (even though maybe even EnWiki can benefit from this). Every detail related to the request can be found here. Of course, I can provide more information if it's needed.

Thank you in advance if someone can help! :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Template:Copied not working

I'm trying to fix the Template:Copied on Talk:Civil rights movement. Whenever I click on "this version of the civil rights movement was copied or ...", it will only lead to the current page of the civil rights movement. I'm not sure why the desired archived page won't display. Mitchumch (talk) 05:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mitchumch: Fixed in this edit. The problem was that from_oldid is supposed to be just the bare number, not a full URL that goes there. I also fixed the unrelated issue with that template that diff wasn't a diff link as it was supposed to be. Jackmcbarn (talk) 06:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Infobox formatting

Hello. I'm currently doing some tests with MediaWiki installation/etc. I've noticed that infoboxes renders differently on enwiki, when compared to most other Wikimedia wikis (such as Meta) and newly installed wikis. For example, on a newly installed [external] wiki, when Module:Infobox and Template:Infobox is copied/setup, the infoboxes look like meta:Template:Infobox User (example) and not like Template:Infobox#Examples. Notice the row heights/sizes/alignment/etc. Where is that formatting coming from? Rehman 10:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Rehman: I think it is in MediaWiki:Common.css, search for 'Infobox template style'. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 11:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, Mike. That explains it. Cheers, Rehman 11:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Adding date of last update to Template:To do

I've thought for a while that it would be nice to add a small "date of last update" line for {{To do}}, probably at {{Tasks}}. However, just using {{REVISIONTIMESTAMP}} won't work, since when transcluded to the talk page, it'll give the timestamp for the last update to the talk page, not the to do list page. Is there any way around this, or some other means to add this feature? {{u|Sdkb}}talk 10:30, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

How about this? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 15:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
GhostInTheMachine, it's tricky for me to test, but if it works, sounds good; thanks for the coding! Regarding the formatting, it might be a little unclear what the date is referring to, so it might be better to have Updated 2020-04-07 than just 2020-04-07. It also looks like it's not displaying on some of the smaller variants, but that might be intentional if there's not space. (We could instead put it on a separate line for them if we wanted.) {{u|Sdkb}}talk 19:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
Some of the TODO boxes are intended to be small so a plain date is wise, but bigger boxes could have "Updated " added. I will do that, wait a while to see if anybody comments and then publish the code. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 19:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC) — Green tickY 09:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
@GhostInTheMachine: Sounds good; thanks! {{u|Sdkb}}talk 18:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Template Malfunction

I recently blocked user:Twiddlethumbs for posting a legal threat using Twinkle. However the template for the block notice failed to appear, instead giving the error message shown. After which I dug around and found the template and after some tinkering was able to manually post a visible template sans the "subst:" part. This seemed to work. Unfortunately AnomieBOT has since reverted to the corrupt form. I have now gone as far as my limited tech skills permit. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:52, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem: It was a result of Special:Diff/966849590/972108928, which I've now reverted. @Paine Ellsworth: ping. Jackmcbarn (talk) 05:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
To elaborate on why that was a problem, on non-testcases pages, it led to demospace being set to the empty string, which doesn't mean "not a demo" but rather "a demo of article space". Jackmcbarn (talk) 06:03, 16 August 2020 (UTC) I no longer believe this to be accurate. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
To Jackmcbarn: that was the only /testcases page that I did that with; however, I did a lot of others with just |demospace=<noinclude>user talk</noinclude>, for example, {{Uw-epblock}}. That was done to remove those templates from Category:Pages with templates in the wrong namespace. So now I wonder if all the ones I added the |demospace= to are or are not messed up? Let me run some tests, and if they are messed up I'll find another way to remove them from the error category. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 15:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
To Jackmcbarn and Ad Orientem: the |demospace= has been added back in a bit differently and has tested well. I found another one and fixed it. I'll look for more. Let me know if there are any further issues. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 16:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Noindex query

I'm involved in a dispute. I'll include the link ticket:2020061810002951 FTR, but I can explain my question without going through the details of the underlying issue.

Many of our internal pages are no-indexed for good reason.

One of the complaints is that the page in question can be found with a Google search.

As this search ( confirms, that claim is accurate.

The 4th entry on that page (although it might be in a different position for others) is a Wikipedia page that has the template {{NOINDEX}}

The Google search page also provides some helpful information

On this support page it states:

Use "noindex" on your page. If using noindex, you must also remove the robots.txt rule that blocks the page to search engines. Sounds strange, but we need to be able to read the page in order to see your "noindex" instruction. Learn about robots.txt here.

When when I inspect the page source, I do see:

<meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow" />

I'm out of my depth here but can someone clarify whether we need to make a change to the page so that it does not show up in the search engine? I was under the impression that the no index template was specifically they are to add the robots.txt language, so I'm unclear whether this is a rare example of a page that's not correctly handled or if we have a bigger issue.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: when I follow your search link above I'm not seeing anything to us. We obviously can't control what third parties choose to index or not, only request - and we did appear to request this correctly. I'm only getting a google result for that page if using the entire domain name, and asking for it to be from us, in which case there is only a link and not even a page description as in this search. — xaosflux Talk 18:21, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
I didn't see it in his link, either. I simply created a new search with the same query ( and it was listed as the 4th result. I have never seen a Wikipedia page listed in a search result with no page preview in the Google results. Killiondude (talk) 18:24, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
I have a feeling it is because the page is noindexed (preventing its indexing) but that search term is the actual page title. — xaosflux Talk 18:29, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Getting that same result with other pages like that, for example "". — xaosflux Talk 18:30, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Xaosflux, I appreciate that we can only request, but the Google text clearly implies they intend to honor the request if formed correctly, and suggesting that this request was not formed correctly. I'm trying to respond to that--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC) suggestion. (Apparently my linked search didn't work right but as the next response shows, they were able to see it.) S Philbrick(Talk) 18:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

In a puzzling development, the Google search no longer returns that page. I wondered if someone fixed something but I don't see any signs of recent edits to the page in question. Update - that may have been a temporary glitch, it shows up now.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:48, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

This is not yet resolved.

  • the page is no indexed, yet shows up in a Google search
  • The Google support page says this is because we made a mistake, and, counterintuitively, we need to remove robots.txt

Does anyone know if this is correct and if so how best to correct it?--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:48, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Sphilbrick, that sounds logical (per the 'new' interpretation of robots.txt as google created some years ago). You can amend MediaWiki:Robots.txt by removing the disallow rules for wikiproject spam. Of course you will have to check all old subpages of that project are actually NOINDEX'ed or those will begin showing up. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:06, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, I'm a little out of my depth but happy to do it if I can get confirmation. As I understand it I should go to MediaWiki:Robots.txt and remove these two lines:
Disallow: /wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spam
Disallow: /wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam
However, before doing so I should check sub pages to see if they are no indexed.
I did that here: All pages with prefix
Unfortunately, if I'm reading correctly there are hundreds of sub pages none of which are no indexed. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:21, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Sphilbrick, sounds like a job for a bot. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:26, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, Thanks, I'll request one. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:32, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Sphilbrick, I note btw, that those Disallow entries are included multiple times in MediaWiki:Robots.txt —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:21, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
@TheDJ and Sphilbrick: - so removing these from robots.txt may possibly impact Google - but what of all other crawlers in the world who may still only look at robots.txt? — xaosflux Talk 14:31, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Xaosflux well we could specifically allow the googlebot I guess. Of course the point remains that trying to control search engine behaviour is like herding cats. Which is why i'm heavily against all this no indexing in the first place. But it seems i am the only one concerned about this. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
At the risk of venturing off topic, I've been long concerned about potential abuse of "noindex". I have seen some proposals for noindexing that I've opposed. my concern is that if we use it cavalierly for things we just don't want to be quite so public, Google might decide we've overdone it and just ignore any such requests which is their right. If we use it in a responsible way, I think they are likely to honor the requests. There are some pages which are useful to have for internal documentation but may well be misinterpreted by the public and deserve to be no indexed.
Back on topic I'm unsure where we are. If I understand the comment by xaosflux, removing these entries from robots.txt may fix the Google problem but simultaneously generate a new problem because other crawlers may now index them. TheDJ offered a suggestion but I frankly don't follow it. S Philbrick(Talk) 15:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Web spider bots don't care why things aren't indexed (less work for them if they can discard pages), and there's no upside for Google to upset web site owners by not following their own documentation on how to keep a page from being indexed. isaacl (talk) 21:14, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Issue with revert notifications?

Hi. I've noticed that not all reverts to edits I've done generate the red-dot alert notification (example). I've not updated by notification preferences in yonks, but I spotted this with another edit the other day. Anyone else had a similar issue? Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

@Lugnuts: Looks like that's phab:T259014. The tl;dr version is that to prevent certain kinds of abuse, only "pure" undos will count as undos now. If you hit the undo button but then change other stuff in the edit box, as happened in that case, it won't. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:54, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Interesting. I see it is announced in #Tech News: 2020-34 below. Johnuniq (talk) 00:06, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks both. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:27, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Map isn't displayed in mapframe

While in preview it is OK. Here: Vnukovo (Moscow Metro). Thank you. --Александр Мотин (talk) 23:28, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Александр Мотин: You have to specify the |zoom= parameter. It is automatically determined in preview, but this does not work when the page is saved. See the note in Template:Maplink/doc. I have added one for you. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 01:47, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
AntiCompositeNumber, hmm, that is interesting, because that bug was fixed. So that means it is something in the Template implementation that breaks it. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 12:50, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
@TheDJ: I also think it must work even without this parameter.--Александр Мотин (talk) 13:04, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Александр Мотин, ah wait, no it is intentional. It is impossible to 'guess' the size of a point without additional context (like a geoshape for instance) and therefore there is no autozoom for points. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:12, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Alright, got it.--Александр Мотин (talk) 13:14, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, a point has no size - its width, depth and height are all zero; and you can't enlarge zero by a simple multiplicative operation. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Template:Comics TPB table & Template:Comics TPB line

Regarding those, how can the rendering of excess spacing below transclusions like here and there respectively be avoided?--Hildeoc (talk) 11:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Hildeoc, I've removed some newlines from {{Comics TPB table}}, and from Smallville, and it looks better now. Are there any other cases where there's still excess whitespace? --rchard2scout (talk) 13:34, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Mute this user

Hello, I just noticed this, and in line with a previous question I asked, is there any chance this can be applied to the watchlist also? I'd like to avoid seeing a continually disruptive editor popping up on my watchlist of over 10,000 items, and if they can be muted there, I'd very much appreciate it. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:33, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Something along the lines of
$($("").has("[href='/wiki/User:Offending_username_goes_here']").css("display", "none"))
in your common JavaScript should do it, as a stopgap measure. Like excluding bot edits and so on, this will make pages where User:Offending username goes here has the most recent edit to not be displayed at all, rather than showing the previous edit (though I guess some of the newfangled watchlist options can mitigate that these days). Also, unlike notifications muting, this will be world-visible - they'll be able to see that you specifically hate them by poking around in your javascript pages. —Cryptic 22:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
@The Rambling Man: I suggest you add this as a sub task feature request to phab:T164542 - something like "Do not display watchlist changes from muted users". — xaosflux Talk 16:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Is the FormWizard gadget installed on English Wikipedia?

Hi all

I'd really like to be able to use FormWizard to make some guidance I'm working on easier to use, can someone tell me if it installed on English Wikipedia (like it is on Meta and Wikidata)? If not what is the process to request that it is added?


John Cummings (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

It is installed - MediaWiki:Gadget-formWizard.js. Nthep (talk) 21:21, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

parameters and auto-sorting tables

What do the 'create', 'order', 'numeric', and 'ascending'/'descending' parameters mean, how do they function, and how do I use 'colspan' and 'rowspan', and use multiple headers or place headers in different locations on Module:AutosortTable, and how do I auto-sort tables and use the 'create', 'order', 'numeric', and 'ascending'/'descending' parameters on tables? -- PK2 (talk) 06:31, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

You might also try asking at Help talk:Table and Help talk:Sorting.. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:38, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. -- PK2 (talk) 10:33, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Multiple "Validate email" messages

Hi, not sure if this is the right venue for this question, but in the past 2 days I've gotten 4 or 5 notifications stating:

Confirm email address You must validate your email address in order to use email features. Click the button below to send a confirmation email to your address. Then, follow the instructions in the email. To check whether you have already confirmed, please see your preferences. A confirmation code has already been emailed to you; if you recently created your account, you may wish to wait a few minutes for it to arrive before trying to request a new code.

I keep reconfirming from the link, but keep getting these messages. The messages sent to my email address have a link in them, which I click on (but no actual confirmation code.) When I click the link it takes me to a page that says:

Confirm email address Your email address has now been confirmed.

But then I get another email stating I have to validate. I've been editing over 8 years and never had this problem before. Please help me figure this out, or direct me to the right place to resolve it. Thanks in advance! Netherzone (talk) 16:52, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

@Netherzone: someone else may be trying to register your email address, you shouldn't confirm unless you have signed up yourself. If you are very confused, you can try to forward your email to us at [email protected] - and we can see if there is more information that may be useful to help you figure out what is going on. — xaosflux Talk 17:46, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for your quick reply, @Xaosflux: I will send a message to the email address above to see what is going on, since I haven't been able to resolve this myself. Netherzone (talk) 18:02, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Is there any way to search for signature similarities?

Hey there, is there any way to search talk pages for signature similarities between editors? I'm looking at a potential sock suspect and I notice they have a distinctive signature, so I'm trying to determine if they just cribbed it from some other editor, or recycled it from an account they previously held. Is that possible? Yeah, weird question, I know. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:31, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Cyphoidbomb, you could try taking some HTML/Wikitext from the signature that excludes the username (like text shadows, text colour, etc.) and put those in Special:Search with filters set to "Discussion" then advanced search > Sort by edit date > Seach in Page text > Exactly this text > and paste in the offending signature and take a look. Ed talk! 19:38, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
I did try that, but didn't have much luck. This was the string I was using. <span style=" background: #00BCD4; padding: 5px; color: white; border: 2px solid #bfbfbf; ">. I tried it without the <span style=" and the greater-then at the end, tried it with quotes, tried it without quotes... I did happen to find my sockmaster, but it was through other means... Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Idea on locator maps

Sure this is little issue. In this example, I've tried to select the coordinates from two lists to transclude them into an instance of the Galician version of the template:Location map+, but all I get is an error because it doesn't parse the pipe and the equal sign. This could be done in some English maps too. What I am missing? ※ Sobreira ◣◥ ፧ (parlez)⁇﹖ 07:35, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Sobreira: Wiki markup doesn't work like that. A pipe from a template will always be interpreted as a literal pipe character and not a template separator itself. If you don't like doing what you did for the "Ourense" point, the next-closest thing would be to change gl:Usuario:Sobreira/coordenadas GZ to contain something like {{Mapa de localización~ | {{{1}}} | lat_deg = {{Usuario:Sobreira/LatGZ|{{{2}}}}} | lon_deg = {{Usuario:Sobreira/LonGZ|{{{2}}}}} | label = [[{{{2}}}]]}}, and then call it like {{Usuario:Sobreira/coordenadas GZ | Galicia | Lugo}}. Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: Thanks so much, it actually makes even more sense, I tried with gl:User:Sobreira/coordenadas GZ3 in gl:User:Sobreira/mapXeralGZ6 (2nd map) and it worked fine. I will just try to set some more named parameters like label (or nothing), mark, marksize and position when back from holidays.
  • Now the dumb questions is: how does it come that the pipes of CoordGZ can't go be transcluded into LocatorMap~, but the ones of LocatorMap~ can be (because they actually are) transcluded into CoordGZ? I tried your system without the ending "}}" in gl:User:Sobreira/coordenadas GZ4, use it as a template in gl:User:Sobreira/mapXeralGZ6 (1st map) and there complete the brackets with some more parameters, but it doesn't work. May be the answer for both errors (this and the original) is that they work wrong because the template is not "completely" transcluded? ※ Sobreira ◣◥ ፧ (parlez)⁇﹖ 16:22, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
    @Sobreira: Here's another way of explaining it: pipes are only special to the preprocessor within the page or template that they're in the source code of. They stop being special to it once they get transcluded elsewhere. This means that if you want to use a pipe as an argument separator, it has to be in the same page or template that the corresponding {{ and }} are in. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Calculating Edit notice effectiveness using preview page stats

In order to help determine the effectiveness of an edit notice on a page, I would like to access statistics about page views of the preview page for a given article. Ideal would be a graph analogous to the one produced by Template:Page views. Alternatively, a table, or any reasonable format that would let us subsequently calculate an "edit abandonment rate" over an interval—i.e., the number of times an editor went to the Preview page, and backed out without saving, divided by the number of saved edits in that interval in the page history.

My theory is that by comparing edit abandonment rate on a page with an edit notice over a given interval, to the same page before it had a notice (or to a similar page) as a control over a similar interval, we would learn something about whether, and how well the edit notice was working, and allow us to tweak it. Really ideal would be a graph that does the calculation and plots rolling abandonment rate over time; if I had that, I'd add it to the Talk page of the edit notice. Real world example: the page Allahabad, which is semi-protected and has an edit notice (here); we *think* the edit notice is helping, but examining page history alone is a blunt instrument, and sees only half the story due to the missing denominator, so we can't be sure. (please {{reply to}} on reply; thanks!) Mathglot (talk) 20:32, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Mathglot, I am pretty sure the WMF tracks this sort of thing but not really at a per article level. A/B testing of edit notices would be cool too. My hypothesis however is banner blindness means people are backing out for other reasons. Maybe Whatamidoing (WMF) knows the shoulders to (digitally) tap. --Izno (talk) 22:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Izno—and I just added 'banner blindness' to my bag of words; I know *exactly* what you are talking about, I just didn't know there was a word for it. But that's the reason for the idea of an experimental control, which would (hopefully) mitigate that problem, at least partly. Given the data, it might even be possible to detect what portion of back-outs were caused by banner blindness; but that's an experiment for someone else. My main motivation here, is to evaluate the efficiency of Edit notices so that they can be improved, so as to alleviate the burden on valiant editors such as Fylindfotberserk or Arjayay (and many others) who must surely feel worn down by the constant vigilance required at certain articles, when they would much rather be creating content. Mathglot (talk) 22:33, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
@Mathglot: Edit notices aren't shown at all on mobile, which is a large chunk of our editing traffic. MusikAnimal talk 03:18, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, MusikAnimal. Can't help what you can't count. But the rest of the traffic does get the notice, and if that's the hand we're dealt, then it is what it is. If you're saying the proportion of desktop traffic is so small that the data acquired from such statistics are likely to be insignificant, then that's different; are you saying that? Mathglot (talk) 03:31, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Now I know why those guys wouldn't listen to my pleas to check the edit notices. Majority were mobile device users. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
I didn't know that either - are edit notices likely to be added to the mobile version in the near future?, or do we need to add hidden text for those that don't see the notice? - Arjayay (talk) 08:48, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
I wonder how many edit notices actually need to be displayed. Volunteer-me has edited WT:MED several thousand times by now, and it's had an edit notice on it for years. But I didn't really need it the first time, and I definitely don't need it now. If there were a system for dismissing a notice for, say, a year, I'd benefit from that.
AFAICT edit notices and hidden text are things that we've never really tested. They probably have a temporary positive effect, especially for new editors and recently contentious things (here, I'm thinking of something like a hidden note to change the source, too, if you're updating the numbers), but if we asked for a show of hands on this page from editors who personally benefited from seeing Template:BLP editintro with every single edit to any BLP, I doubt that many of us would find this especially helpful. If people want to test this, then a before/after test (e.g., turn it on for one week, turn it off for one week) would probably be easier than something like being able to dismiss the notices semi-permanently or turning it on for half the articles and off on the other half. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:24, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-34

20:41, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I want to call particular attention to the last item. This is the "real deal": a full m:server switch for all wikis, not just a maintenance window affecting some wikis for three minutes. They schedule these things for the European afternoon/North American morning to maximize the number of tech staff who can be on duty. So please refresh your memories, mark your calendars, find your IRC logins, and be prepared for questions. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Bizarre shortdesc

Sharon Public Higher Secondary School has the template auto-generated shortdesc:

Private school in Udhampur, Jammu and Kashmir, India {| class="wikitable" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; border: solid darkgray;" |- |style="width: |- |}

This text appears nowhere in the source text. Couldn't figure out what's causing this. SD0001 (talk) 07:08, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

The school infobox includes an OSM mapping template that probably should not be there. (Removing it fixes the SD.) I will take a more detailed look when I am on a grownup computer. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 07:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Fixed. The infobox had multiple problems. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:32, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

List of pages matching search

(NB: basically copied and pasted from the help desk)

I'm running JWB (an in-browser tool similar to AWB), and I'm trying to find a way to get a plain list of pages whose text includes a search term somewhere. The search box with quotes works great for this, however it's impractical to manually copy a list from there. I know that AWB can do this, but is there some other way to do this so that I don't have to bother the AWB folk too much (and also to make it so I can fiddle with it more without wasting others' time)? LittlePuppers (talk) 16:02, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

LittlePuppers, wrote a little script for you - open your browser console on the search results, then paste ((t)=>{$(".mw-search-result > .mw-search-result-heading > a").each((i,el)=>{t += `${$(el).attr("title")}\n`});return t;})("");. This will return a list of page titles for you to import into JWB, just copy and paste. Hope this helps. Ed talk! 16:13, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Wow, that's great! Thanks, Ed6767! LittlePuppers (talk) 16:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

ImageAnnotator gadget broken due to Tooltips.js being deleted

Hello, it appears the ImageAnnotator gadget (MediaWiki:Gadget-ImageAnnotator.js) on enwiki is broken, and has been for some time. This appears to be because MediaWiki:Tooltips.js, which it depends upon, was deleted by @Fastily back in October 2017. Given that nobody else has noticed, it's probably not a big deal, but it would be nice to have that page restored with the content from commons:MediaWiki:Tooltips.js. The gadget works correctly if Tooltips.js is pasted into the browser console and then importScript('MediaWiki:Gadget-ImageAnnotator.js') is ran (for both local annotations and annotations from images on Commons). I'm not completely sure if this is the right place to report this. --Pokechu22 (talk) 20:04, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Doing...xaosflux Talk 23:37, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
The import jobs are failing right now, will try again tomorrow - ping me if this gets ignored. — xaosflux Talk 23:44, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
@Pokechu22: I've imported the tooltips from commons, is your issue resolved? — xaosflux Talk 11:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Yep, the gadget works now, thanks! There does seem to be one other thing - commons:MediaWiki:Gadget-ImageAnnotator.js has had a few changes since the last time it was synced (some cache stuff and WebP support; it looks like the eslint-config-wikimedia autofix was applied to both pages though). Could you import those changes too? --Pokechu22 (talk) 17:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 Done @Pokechu22: I've resynced MediaWiki:Gadget-ImageAnnotator.js from commons. — xaosflux Talk 18:27, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

History since last view

Until today, when viewing the history of a particular page, all changes made since I last visited the page would have a green bullet in front of them rather than the usual grey. This has now gone away; anyone know why and how I can get that back? Using Firefox and Modern skin. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:57, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: I still see this. Has the page in question been on your watchlist the whole time? Is the page still bold on your watchlist? Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:55, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Jackmcbarn, it was not showing up on any page, but now seems to be back; I'll just chalk that up to a momentary glitch. Thanks for checking. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:29, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Understanding an error message

I attempted to created a redirect page titled Expected Mean Square. Repeatedly I tried to save it, and every time I got this error message:

A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software.
[e6ace71c-ae3f-4171-8639-3e1554cba7dd] 2020-08-19 23:44:49: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError"

Can anyone explain this? Michael Hardy (talk) 23:46, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

And now I have succeeded in creating the redirect. Michael Hardy (talk) 00:08, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I paste here what I wrote on the task:

Sometimes, certain actions over the same data (e.g. the same page) are incompatible and fail or they would be hang up forever- it doesn't have to be user interactions, it could also be background maintenance tasks. It is impossible to eliminate all possible interactions- but it is our job (developers) to minimize their appearance. You did nothing wrong, and you did ok with retrying (and that is why it worked afterwards). Our job is discovering what interacted here and try to make sure it is very unlikely it happens again. Thanks you very much for the report, flagging them when they happen several times in a row helps us detect them.

The error message was written indeed in "developer language" and not in a user friendly way, as those kind of errors should not happen. In general, if you come up with an error on an edit or other action, retry. If it fails several times (it is not a one time thing, and there is no ongoing announced maintenance), please report on phabricator so it can be looked at. Feel free to subscribe to the task to keep updated with its progress. Cheers. --JCrespo (WMF) (talk) 06:22, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Search not working on safari

I search on my apple device (iPad Mini 1) and sometimes the text takes some time to load in! Anyone else have this problem on a ' ' old ' ' Apple device? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Another Wiki User the 2nd (talkcontribs) 00:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Another Wiki User the 2nd, you mean the text you type takes long ? Or showing the article ? the results ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Another Wiki User the 2nd: I own an iPad Mini 2 and don't seem to have this problem. Do you have slow internet? I think that might be the reason. Maka, the Two Star Meister! (talk·) 11:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Template:Conservatism US puzzle

might end up being a bigger can of worms, but here it is. I notice that some weeks ago somebody changed this template to make Donald Trump the central image in the pictoral portion. No discussion that this should be so, but it is simply wrong. One would think the center picture would be the most central figure to the ideology. Trump, while surely important among recent Republican presidents, is not a figure in conservatism. More of a nationalist/populist inclined to government solutions. Looks too much like an advertisement. I tried fixing it by switching Reagan to the center spot, unquestionably a more central figure in conservatism, and tried both here and on Commons, but nothing seems to do it. I suppose there may be differences on what to go there, but first we need to go back to a less advertisement-looking version to get to that discussion. Hyperbolick (talk) 05:07, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

While not the place for the broader discussion, about whether Trump is a central (or any) figure in American Conservatism, the technical solution is to change the image from File:Conservatism in the United States Collage 3.jpg to File:Conservatism in the United States Collage 2.jpg. You were just changing the imagemap (where the links are). Jack Kemp is an odd choice, too. If you want Reagan central (which seens reasonable) you will need to make a new collage image. —  Jts1882 | talk  08:06, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
In that case I have reverted to the most Recent Non-Controversial. Or “RNC." Hyperbolick (talk) 17:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Refill 2

This could be just me, but I notice that Refill has once again swooned. It seems to be almost a monthly occurrence, which is not helpful for those editors who use the bot on a regular basis. Is anyone technically minded (ie. not me) applying CPR ? Thanks - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 12:26, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

@Derek R Bullamore: It's not just you - it's been pooped out for me, too. And I've not been attempting CPR because were I to do so a malpractice lawsuit would certainly follow. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 15:38, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, also broken for me (I came here to moan but saw you had beaten me to it!) GiantSnowman 16:20, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Refill 2 asks for bugs to be placed at User talk:Zhaofeng Li - however, Zhaofeng has been globally inactive for over a year, so it's looking like this is an unmaintained external tool. — xaosflux Talk 16:34, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
  • There's probably an editor or two who may be interested in creating a new tool or taking over this one (if that's legally allowed in one way or another.) At least one editor comes to mind, but whether or not any of them would be interested is an unknown. Steel1943 (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Looks to be back online. Doesn't change the underlying concerns, but it appears OK for now. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 19:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
This time it was down for roughly a day - whew. I would, again, make the suggestion that a Wikipedia:Fixing bare urls noticeboard (or some title like that) be created so these concerns can be centraliz(s)ed. They tend to get lost on these VP noticeboards. We might even be able to get whoever is maintaining refill2 to give us updates there. An even bigger wish is that some form of the now defunct reflinks be created. It used to fix many (though not all) of the bare urls that refill2 can't. In particular YouTube and many PDF's were formatted by reflinks. Those have to be done manually now and that slows things down for those editors who work on them. MarnetteD|Talk 20:11, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
@MarnetteD: It would be especially nice to have something that combines the best features of refill and the best features of reflinks - I also used to use them both in tandem pretty frequently. Any idea where one might go to ask about something like that? --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 15:30, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Your ping didn't work Ser. I make that "using the wrong bracket error" all the time :-) I have no idea who to contact anymore. The year+ changes to refill seemed to move from person to person and place to place and I wasn't able to get clarity on any of those. In this thread User talk:Zhaofeng Li/reFill#Failing again? "Waiting for an available worker." Curb Safe Charmer contacted the Wikimedia Cloud Services team so that might be a place to start though that is just a guess on my part. MarnetteD|Talk 15:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
@MarnetteD: *sigh* One of those days.
When I have a moment I'll take a look at the Cloud Services team. Alternatively, I might ask in one of the Facebook groups for some advice, see what shakes out. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 15:56, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Basically it sounds like you want someone to build a replacement external tool and support it? There are a few options:
  1. Asking here - perhaps someone will volunteer.
  2. You could ask at wikitech-l - someone may take it up.
  3. If you want WMF to support this, you can open a feature request (Wikipedia:Bug_reports_and_feature_requests) and rally support for it on next year's meta:Community Wishlist Survey 2021. The Cloud Services team that Ser Amantio di Nicolao mentioned would be a good candidate - and they certainly could start on it early.
xaosflux Talk 16:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that you get a positive response Ser. In this thread User talk:Zhaofeng Li/reFill#DeadURL Github is mentioned but in this later thread User talk:Zhaofeng Li/reFill#Failing again? "Waiting for an available worker." Keith D explains how that went. MarnetteD|Talk 16:08, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
@MarnetteD: I think the second link should be User talk:Zhaofeng Li/reFill#reFill adding invalid "deadurl" parameter to templates. Keith D (talk) 18:09, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Erp you are right Keith D - that is what I get for copy/pasting too quickly. Thanks for fixing my error. MarnetteD|Talk 18:20, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Thanks for the suggestions. I will try to pursue one or more of them tonight, unless my wits go woolgathering (as they are wont to do) - I'll post a link to this section as needed so that others can provide support as they wish.
As for what I'm hoping for, ultimately: either some more support for refill, or a new system - I don't much care which. But I'm with those who say it's becoming tedious to have to go in search of assistance when refill is down. It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen it's a massive chore to have to deal with. --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 17:18, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
The Wikimedia Cloud Services team are responsible for the infrastructure that ReFill runs on, so they are able to 'restart the pod' when it gets stuck. To ask them to attend to it, I make contact via the #wikimedia-operations IRC channel, but most people will find it easier to use this form. However they are not responsible for the program code - they don't get involved in that. I gather Cyberpower678 has volunteered to maintain the code, but I gather the tool may need a complete re-write in order to make it easier to support, and that is a huge task probably beyond the capacity of one over-committed volunteer. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 17:42, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
@Curb Safe Charmer: Note that Operations/SRE and Cloud Services (WMCS) are completely different teams, I believe you're confusing these two.  Majavah talk · edits 18:11, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Curb Safe Charmer, over-committed indeed. But I am muddling through right now. I do plan to merge ReFill into IABot, since they have features in common and features each can benefit from. —CYBERPOWER (Chat) 18:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
It sounds like a cron should be set up to restart the webservice every few hours or so. It's cheap and hacky, but not uncommon for Toolforge tools and it would permanently resolve the specific issue we're facing. MusikAnimal talk 09:29, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

More general solution

There's lots of tools that get written. Most don't see much use, but a few (refill2 falls into this camp), become extremely popular because they provide critical services. I don't think it's reasonable to MWF to take over maintenance of these, but they could provide a monitoring and alerting framework. They already have such a facility for internal use. All that really needs to happen is to allow external developers to tie into that. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@RoySmith: Try this. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Curb Safe Charmer, Ah, so my tool is there, and I didn't even do anything to configure it. That's excellent. Now, the next step should be that alerts get sent to the tool owner. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:54, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Nonexistent edit conflicts

I keep getting reports of edit conflicts despite the fact that no one is editing the article at the same time I am. For this edit and this edit, the edit saved even though I did not follow the steps to resolve the edit conflict, and clicked Leave Page when told the contents of it would not be saved if I did so. In the first example, no one had edited the article in about four months, whereas in the second example the last edit to the article before mine was about a day and a half old. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 21:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Zeke, the Mad Horrorist: Are you using wikEd? I seem to recall similar problems from users of this editor. It will be checked under Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:08, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes I am, and I was wondering if that had anything to do with it. I've been using it for years; why does it still have so many issues? Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 21:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Also, wow, another edit conflict. Go figure. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 21:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
@Zeke, the Mad Horrorist: I made a few edits with wikEd just now, and wasn't able to reproduce the bug. I am using Firefox on Linux.
Let's first make sure this isn't just confirmation bias. Please edit for a while without wikEd and see if the problem goes away. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
In the interest of full disclosure, I have never had this issue before the last day or so. But it's worth a try, I suppose. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 21:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
@Zeke, the Mad Horrorist: What browser are you using, and what version? Was it recently updated? Have you recently enabled or disabled any other gadgets? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Firefox 79, not even a month old, and the only thing I can recall tinkering with was going to one of my Java pages to turn off the Dark mode enabler because while I liked the softer look of white-on-black I found it was inverting other colors as well and making the thing look awful. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 22:30, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
@Zeke, the Mad Horrorist: Sorry, still can't reproduce this. My working theory was that double-clicking the "Publish" button can cause edit conflicts iff wikEd is enabled. Even if you aren't double-clicking intentionally, there could be something wrong with your pointing device that's causing false multiple clicks. But I've tried repeatedly stabbing at the Publish button, both with and without wikEd, and every time the form is only submitted once. So I don't know. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 23:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
That would be strange since I'm using a MacBook Pro I've only had for about a month. I haven't experienced any double-clicking issues with anything else while using this machine. But I'll keep WikEd off for a little while and let you know if my experience improves; I have no doubt this is just part of the laundry list of issues I've seen noted over the years with this thing (in case you're wondering why I still put up with it: I like the way it displays wikitext on the screen as that helps me navigate when editing, but if you know of another gadget that does this, I'm all ears). Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 23:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Add me as someone experiencing this. It is annoying to say the least. Like Mad Horrist above this has never really happened before. I am using Wikied and firefox too. AIRcorn (talk) 22:40, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I just got it too, 2010 Wikitext editor without WikiEd. I did double-click "Publish changes" though. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 23:16, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I upgraded from Firefox 77 to 79 today, and now I am seeming double-submits in the network log. Most of the time one of them is showing as "blocked" (no http status), but not always. So my new working theory is:

  1. wikEd submits the form twice
  2. The browser tries to detect and block double-submits, but Mercury is in retrograde some sort of race condition happens, and the form gets submitted twice.
  3. MediaWiki should treat the second submission as a null edit, but The Moon is waxing gibbous there is another race condition

So why is wikEd submitting the form twice? Well:

Extended content
// wikEd.SaveButtonHandler: 'Save page' onsubmit click handler for submit button

wikEd.SaveButtonHandler = function (event) {

    wikEd.saveButton.removeEventListener('click', wikEd.SaveButtonHandler, true);

    // update textarea
    if (wikEd.useWikEd === true) {
        wikEd.textareaUpdated = true;

    // check for interfering scripts or gadgets: mwEmbed for file uploads
    if ( (wikEd.editUpload === true) && (window.MW_EMBED_VERSION !== undefined) ) {
        wikEd.saveButton.addEventListener('click', wikEd.SaveButtonHandler, true);

    // add "using wikEd" to summary, not for adding a new section (+ tab)
    if (wikEd.summaryText !== null) {
        var text = wikEd.summaryText.value;
        text = text.replace(/^[, ]+/, '');
        text = text.replace(/[, ]+$/, '');

        if ( (wikEd.using === true) && (text !== '') ) {
            if (text.lastIndexOf(wikEd.config.summaryUsing) < 0) {
                if (wikEd.addNewSection !== true) {
                    text += ' ' + wikEd.config.summaryUsing;
        wikEd.summaryText.value = text;

    // submit;

    // reinstate handler in case the browser back button will be used
    wikEd.saveButton.addEventListener('click', wikEd.SaveButtonHandler, true);


First, we're submitting the form with; But I see no preventDefault() here. There form is going to get submitted again once the function ends. @Cacycle and TheDJ:, any idea what was supposed to happen here? Either:

Extended content
@@ -4532,9 +4532,6 @@ wikEd.SaveButtonHandler = function (even
         wikEd.summaryText.value = text;
-    // submit
     // reinstate handler in case the browser back button will be used
     wikEd.saveButton.addEventListener('click', wikEd.SaveButtonHandler, true);


Extended content
@@ -4538,6 +4538,8 @@ wikEd.SaveButtonHandler = function (even
     // reinstate handler in case the browser back button will be used
     wikEd.saveButton.addEventListener('click', wikEd.SaveButtonHandler, true);
+    event.preventDefault();

stop the (attempted) double submits, for me. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 23:21, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

LOL,  Confirmed. 'Finally' got an edit conflict with the above edit. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 23:24, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Now I'm even more confused. I had the edit window since before Aircorn or ACN edited. So an edit conflict was expected. Yet my content was appended after Aircorn's and ACN's automatically. Have MediaWiki's three-way merge algorithms improved recently? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 23:37, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
That wasn't a recent change iirc, it came within the last year or so. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 23:50, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Suffusion of Yellow, it's using the .click to forward the click after it has done its modifications (should just do a submit on the form really). It does indeed miss the preventDefault it seems. Would explain the observed behavior. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:49, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Inoperative template

I brought up a problem with Template:Citeplato at the template's talk page; but the page apparently has only a single watcher, who may be inactive, so I thought I better bring the matter up here as well. Could someone with template skill take a look? Deor (talk) 18:16, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@Atethnekos: Can you take a look at this, since it's your tool? I tried changing to, as wikitech:News/ URLs for webservices suggested, but those links don't work either. Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:27, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
The user who created the tool has not edited in 6 years. You can try to get in touch with them to unbreak the tool. Otherwise the template should probably be replaced and deleted. --Izno (talk) 18:32, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Table sorting buttons coloring

As a bit of a follow-up to my question about coloring reference labels, at the U Michigan presidents table, the house coloring of the header row doesn't seem to apply to the up and down arrows used to sort the table, which remain black and thus mostly disappear. Is there any way to make them white, or is that just as impossible as with the reference labels? {{u|Sdkb}}talk 05:01, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Sdkb sort of the same. Those are actually images. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, images? Oh my. Well, I guess I'll consider my dreams of color-coordinated sorting arrows crushed for the foreseeable future. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 08:23, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

How to save settings for code editor

Pressing Ctrl+, on the code editor opens a configuration panel, but the settings don't get saved, and the defaults get restored when you open another page with it. Is there any way to save the settings? Nardog (talk) 01:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm actually not sure, on normal CodeMirror installs that should do it, but I'm unsure how it's set up here. You might want to ask or report a bug for mw:Extension:CodeMirror here Ed talk! 02:03, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
In case "the code editor" doesn't mean the one that you use for editing .js pages, then please see mw:Editor and see if you can figure out which editing environment you're using in the (aging) screenshots there. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
@Ed6767 and Whatamidoing (WMF): Yes, I'm of course talking about CodeEditor, which is based on Ace, not CodeMirror (unless one is a fork of the other). Nardog (talk) 14:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Whoa! Never knew about the configuration panel. I see that it even includes a "live autocomplete" option. But it's a shame that there doesn't seem to be any way to save the preferences for later. I think a feature request needs to be filed on phab. SD0001 (talk) 03:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
@SD0001: This page discusses ways to configure the editor through scripts. I wonder if a script could be written to save settings in a cookie or, failing that, configure the editor directly. Nardog (talk) 14:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Tried it, but I couldn't figure it out how to do it (or if it's possible). We do have an ace object in global scope, but to tweak the pre-configured editor we need the editor object which isn't available in scope. SD0001 (talk) 08:10, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
@SD0001: Thanks, I filed a request. Btw I see it supports syntax highlighting for MediaWiki as well. I wonder if it can be the default editor for all pages; I love CodeEditor and I've never been a fan of other options like the 2017 editor or WikiEd... Nardog (talk) 12:41, 24 August 2020 (UTC)


Does anyone know who or where to ask for admin help on Toolforge? Trying to restart or fix a tool for which we don't know who the maintainer is: -- GreenC 21:40, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

GreenC, [33] doesn't help? --Izno (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Other than that, I'd suggest filing a ticket at phab:project/profile/539/ saying you're looking for the maintainer so you can ask him for a restart. --Izno (talk) 23:16, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
GreenC, Pinging Smith609, the tool maintainer. May be worth to Special:EmailUser/Smith609 too. Ed talk! 00:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
The #wikimedia-cloud IRC channel is a nice place where you'll find WMCS employees as well as volunteers. SD0001 (talk) 04:36, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
It seems that the tool has not worked since the DNS move, and it has been restarted sense. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 14:39, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Looking for page transclusion templates

The normal way of transcluding a talk page, e.g., the way we handle discussions about promoting a page to Wikipedia:Good articles status, is just to stick the page straight into the wikitext: {{Talk:St. James Church (Queens)/GA1}} gets pasted into Talk:St. James Church (Queens), and it's done.

However, it appears that some folks use a template for this, so instead you would type something like {{Special transcluder template|1=Talk:St. James Church (Queens)/GA1}} or maybe even {{Special GA discussion transcluder|article=St. James Church (Queens)}} and it has the same effect as just doing it above (maybe with an added category or decorative border).

My question: I've seen one of these templates at the Korean Wikipedia. Does anyone here know of any others that are in regular use? In practice, I only care about transcluding pages that contain (current/active/you might want to join these today) discussions. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 15:16, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-35

17:58, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Trying to get Dylan Thomas' image to appear in the hover pane

For example, a photo of the subject appears when the cursor is hovering over this inserted link Sir John Powell but not when over the Dylan Thomas link. Is it just my pc/browser perhaps or are others also affected? Is there a fix to his infobox perhaps that can achieve this? Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 20:16, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I see an image for both in Firefox, Chrome, Edge and Brave, but the format of the popup is different if I am logged in or not. On an iPad, I cannot hover on a link at all. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:12, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Image shows for me. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:19, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
I seem to recall but can't find the previous thread that this relates to whether the image is free or not and NFCC images do not show up on hover especially on the mobile site. Nthep (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Richard_Hughes_(British_writer) contains a Non Free image but the hover pane works for me unlike Dylan Thomas Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 21:40, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Emir of Wikipedia do both images appear and can I ask what device/browser you are using and where i.e in UK? Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 21:43, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
The image which shows for me on Dylan Thomas is File:Dylan Thomas photo.jpg which is a non-free image. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:45, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
on all the browsers you listed and in the UK - the exact reverse of my experience - this is very curious is it not? Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 22:08, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Any other suggestions on why this issue is seen by some users and not others? Please check it out yourself - for me the Hover pane appears here John Powell_(judge) (CC) and Richard_Hughes_(British_writer) (NFCC) but not here Dylan Thomas (NFCC) or here Kingsley_Amis (CC) ?Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 08:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Horatius At The Bridge, one set of people is referring to Navigation Popups and another to Page_Previews ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:41, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
OK thanks, good point. I'm solely concerned with the Notable People list in the Laugharne article where the hover pane works on some links with photos but not with others as explained above and also why some users don't get this variation at all - all the bios photos display the pic. (Whether it's called a navigation popup or a page preview - I'm afraid I don't know)Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 16:40, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
@Horatius At The Bridge: The relevant settings are as follows:
  • at Preferences → Appearance, under the heading "Reading preferences" there is an item "⧼popups-prefs-optin-title⧽"
  • at Preferences → Gadgets, under the heading "Browsing" there is an item "Navigation popups: article previews and editing functions pop up when hovering over links"
It's best to enable one or neither, but not both at once. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
I see the same. Photos with Powell and Hughes, no photos for Thomas and Amis. I'm in London and using Page Previews, without Navigation Popup enabled, in Firefox. Does this help at all? —  Jts1882 | talk  16:58, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
And if I switch off Page Preview and enable navigation popup, I see images for all four. —  Jts1882 | talk  17:02, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
I've just tried your last combo, it works but the preview boxes are in quite a different and less readable format. It's really the first simple image display option I want but for all the photo links. Thank you for reassuring me I am not alone with this anomaly btw Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 18:58, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
My user preferences are all set to default so this issue should afflict others with the same settings. It is not related to the infobox template - see John Perrot which has one and which produces the image in the hover pane - whereas Kingsley Amis and Dylan Thomas also have that syntax but do not display the image. Similarly links without infoboxes such as Richard Hughes do generate a hover pane image whereas Caleb Rees, also without an infobox, does not. All these examples are from the Laugharne Notable People list. Surely there must be an explanation and fix for this basic anomaly? Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 09:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
The Page Preview algorithm obviously excludes some images for a reason. The non-free image use seems the most likely cause, as the fair use justifications apply to use on a single page, not to popups on every page linking to it. Some are getting through, perhaps because they are tagged differently on the image page. If so, fixing it will probably mean excluding all the non-free images, including those now shown, rather than displaying them all. —  Jts1882 | talk  10:11, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
With navigation popups enabled (only possible without Reading/Page Preview enabled) all images are displayed for the user with that configuration but in a different and less readable format (imo). That is certainly a fix displaying CC and NFCC images but my objective is for both types to show in the clearer Page Preview mode. This cannot be a function of copyright designation or infobox inclusion since the examples cited above do already display in all combinations. There seems to be another parameter such as tags - as suggested - that is in play here. My issue is to identify if there is and determine whether it can changed to provide a fix to enable consistent image inclusion in the hover pane when Page Preview is selected. Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 12:15, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
I think the algorithm that scores images for Page Images may be involved, as described at mw:Extension:PageImages#How_are_images_scored?. Image score depends on size, aspect ratio, and possibly its licence. The images that don't show (Thomas, Rees, Amis) are below the optimum size (<400px), while images that appear (Hughes) are larger. Hughes might stop appearing when the bot resizes the image to follow with the free use criteria.—  Jts1882 | talk  14:51, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm obliged, that looks like the culprit ;-) It would be rather odd for a bot to automatically degrade NFCC images to prevent their display in Page Preview but permit it in navigation pop up mode.Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 18:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

How to find contributions after a name change?

The link that doesn't work is here. The signature on this help desk question has a green link to the talk page, which for me indicates a redirect. That happens when a username is unacceptable and needs to be changed. Shouldn't there be a way to find the contributions of the person under the old name?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Vchimpanzee, they are kept. My account was renamed, and all my contributions are still on my account - see Special:Contributions/Merluni_Moonfang Ed talk! 21:28, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, but look at what happens when you click on this link.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Vchimpanzee, yes, that's because the account has been renamed, so technically you cannot access the contributions of a username which now has no user assigned to it, so you follow the user talk link to the new account. Ed talk! 21:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
When a user is renamed, the name shown against all of their existing contributions is adjusted to suit. So the contribs for the old name will be empty, and the contribs for the new name will also list all of the edits made prior to the rename. Follow the link to either the user page or the user talk page, and in the left margin, click "User contributions". --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Again, no solution is provided for finding the contributions made by the name that has been changed. It is probably a rare situation, but if you do encounter it, it seems there should be some method of finding out that the name has been changed when you go to the contributions. There is none. If you click on the link and that's all you have, you are led to believe the username has made no contributions, because there is nothing to indicate there is a new name.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
@Vchimpanzee: depending on the situation, when an account gets renamed the old name becomes available, and could be taken by someone else - meaning that the contributions of that "name" should be about the contributions made by that "account". — xaosflux Talk 15:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
That does complicate things. I suppose if the situation I encountered is that rare, it would be ... no, a name that has been reused would actually be less likely than one that had not. Radio and TV call letters are a good example of the same situation in Wikipedia article titles. We have hatnotes for those. I once added to the directions for how to handle a redirect after a move because call letters could be reused. Before my contribution, the directions said just go ahead and keep the redirect in links to the former article.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:09, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Article talk page

At Talk:Arameans, after making an edit [34], two sections are no longer visible in the table of contents, namely 32 Modern identity and 33 RfC about the modern Aramean identity, and the formatting appears to have merged them, see [35] for before. I've tried to add a topic to the page, but to no avail. Thank you. Mugsalot (talk) 19:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mugsalot: Fixed - an unclosed <ref> tag made the rest of the page disappear. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:23, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

HotCat's hidden failures

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:HotCat § Doesn't always work. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 20:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Issue with dynamic preview

When I have "Show previews without reloading the page" set to "on" for dynamic edit previews, the preview now hangs. It throws the following error: "Uncaught ReferenceError: t聨is is not defined" Wanted to flag in case it's a newly introduced typo somewhere. For now, I've toggled the dynamic preview off and I'm fine. czar 03:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

 Works for me However, the ajax preview feature is known to break due to presence of broken external scripts from your common.js. SD0001 (talk) 07:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
@Czar: Just a guess, but try replacing User:Svick/HarvErrors.js with the User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js. SD0001 (talk) 07:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Yeah that should definitely be it. See Module_talk:Footnotes#Multiple_invalid_harvnb's:_preview_hangs where this was reported before. SD0001 (talk) 07:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
@SD0001, between that and logging out, looks like I'm back to normal. Thanks! czar 23:16, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Bullet points in ref

Note: Wikipedia:Help_desk#Bullet_points_in_ref.--Hildeoc (talk) 23:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

How do I make a sidebar equal in width to an infobox?

I'm trying to make Template:Civil conflict sidebar equal in width to an infobox on an article page. For example, on Nashville sit-ins the sidebar is not equal in width to the infobox. I'm attempting to replicate the appearance shown at World War II that use Template:campaignbox. Mitchumch (talk) 22:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mitchumch: I got it working with some horrible hackery: Special:Diff/974783257, Special:Diff/973457485/974785480, and Special:Diff/974782396. That's less than ideal, but I think it's as close as you'll get to how World War II does it. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
I was thinking there was a template modification that would auto-adjust with the size of the infobox. There are an ever growing list of articles with comparable sidebar templates like this one. I didn't know how the military sidebars were able to always be the equal width of their corresponding infoboxes. I looked at the code, but I didn't see anything. I also looked at the template through the "edit" selection and I didn't see any parameter for "| width =".
I appreciate the work you did. I didn't know there was a way to manually manipulate the width of a campaignbox outside of coding. Mitchumch (talk) 07:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Just as sidebars are not all the same width, infoboxes aren't either. Some have a fixed width, some have the width determined by the widest item that it contains, which is often an image. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:23, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Redrose64 Are you saying all the military articles with campaignboxes are manually adjusting their infoboxes to match the width of campaignboxes? Mitchumch (talk) 17:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Without examples, I can't tell. But I do know that in a situation where there are two boxes (perhaps produced by templates) neither of which is a child of the other, neither box can know the width of the other so cannot adjust its own width to match. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Redrose64 What's the value of parameter "sidebox" in Template:Infobox civil conflict? Can that parameter be modified to inform the sidebar's width? Mitchumch (talk) 07:50, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorting list of names by last name

I'm in the process of converting an alumni page from a bulleted list to a series of tables, so that readers will have the option to sort by name, not just year of graduation. The documentation for how to sort by last name, at Help:Sorting#Specifying a sort key for a cell, advises adding e.g. | data-sort-value="Pashgian, Helen" | [[Helen Pashgian]] for every row, as I did here. That seems like a terrible and duplicative way to store the information, though, since there are already sortkeys defined at all the pages for use in categories. Is there any way to tell the table to just automatically fetch the DEFAULTSORT value for each page listed, so that I don't need to write them all out myself? {{u|Sdkb}}talk 05:40, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I believe you're looking for {{sortname}}. —Cryptic 06:07, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Cryptic, I came across that template and was like "excellent!", and then I saw it has an orange deprecated notice, suggesting using the above method instead. I just looked through the talk page archives, and see that Scarabocchio has brought up similar concerns. So is the deprecation notice inappropriate? Courtesy pinging others who discussed on that page: @Redrose64, Jonesey95, and Erik:. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 00:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Sdkb, it was deprecated. Then no one listened for years, so i found an alternative way to sort of make it work. But the other method is still better. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:23, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, isn't it better to have some way to not have to repeat the name, though? Per don't repeat yourself. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 08:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Sdkb, sortname also repeats, it is just hidden behind template logic. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, looking at it, it doesn't seem to—{{sortname|Helen|Pashgian}} only includes "Helen" once, but the template is able to sort it by "Pashgian, Helen". That's what we'd want. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 09:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Sdkb, just because it isnt visible, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Also the template doesn't sort. A script that reads the table content does the sorting. The template generates the hidden information that tells it which value to use for that. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:37, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
TheDJ, what you're describing is still DRY, since it's generating (behind the scenes) the data-sort-value from the name itself, thus requiring only one instance of the name in the source code, not two. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 14:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Sdkb & TheDJ The difference in user-friendliness between {{sortname}} and the alternative is immense. A new editor would be able to use {{sortname}} after glancing at the page source. The same editor would shy away from the contortions of the data-sort-value clause. It's counter-productive to require the editor to understand something of the mechanics behind the scenes - a properly written template would save them that, and allow them to move onto more productive matters. Scarabocchio (talk) 19:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
The templates I have seen that make this easiest are customized table row templates such as {{National football squad player (goals)}} and other templates in Category:Sports squad templates. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:54, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Jonesey95: Are you suggesting editors create such customized row templates for each table they want to make sortable? IMO the template sortkey works fine. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:41, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
(ec) I agree that the template is necessary. Sdkb's point about duplication is not about the underlying code – it's about what the editor does/sees. The chances of the average editor correctly editing both the property and the displayed name is unlikely near the 100% accuracy produced by the template, in my experience, not to mention being extra work. I was surprised when I saw it was deprecated with no replacement, as it's transcluded over 41,000 times (and should be used much more, as I see routinely find tables that sort names incorrectly without it). —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 03:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting that anyone do anything they don't want to do, but just showing that people make lots of templates to ease the creation of standard table rows. As for {{sortname}}, should it really still be deprecated after TheDJ's modifications to use the data-sort-value attribute? – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Given that we can't find any discussion leading to the deprecation and that the sentiment here seems to be it's useful, I'm going to go ahead and remove the deprecation notice. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 21:35, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
AlanM1, i'll note there is a replacement. Editors just refuse to use it. The downside to this template form, is that the sort key only applies to the template call itself, instead of to the cell. If you put any other content into the table cell, that content will be appended/prepended to your sort key, and might cause different behaviour from what people expect. Especially with date and number sorting that might be a problem. But this is one of those areas that just works sub optimally. Anyone is welcome to improve upon the status quo. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Scheduled down time

Just giving this wider visibility: Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 65#Important: maintenance operation on September 1st. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Hide transclusions doesn't?

I'm looking at There's a slew of links, but almost all of them are because those articles transclude {{Protected areas of New York City}}. What part of "Hide transclusions" am I not understanding? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:08, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

PS, there's a "Hide links" option, which makes everything go away. So, that's an option to show me "everything that links here, except for the things that link here"? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
I believe the 'hide transclusions' hides transclusions of the article, not links to the article from a transcluded template. As far as I can tell, every page linking to that article also carries the template [36]. There could also be direct links other than those in the template, but I'm not sure how to check for that. –xenotalk 18:14, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
"Hide transclusions" is typically useful only for templates, which are transcluded using {double brace notation}. In this case, the article Vinmont Veteran Park is not transcluded in any other pages, so hiding transclusions does not change the list of pages that is displayed. Possibly of interest: T14396 and {{Source links}}. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:38, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Xeno, Ah, cool. The petscan tool does exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
There is a transclusion that can be hidden. Do a text search for 'transclusion' (without quote marks) at this page:; 2× results. Now hide transclusions and do the text search again: 1× result. Vinmont Veteran Park transcludes itself because Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration reads the article's raw wikitext when it searches for {{use xxx dates}} templates.
Trappist the monk (talk) 19:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Change that breaks layout

See m:Tech#Change_that_breaks_layout.--GZWDer (talk) 02:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Template:Collapsible large category TOC

How can one fix the rendering of excess ("double") boldface of the term Contents:in that template? (I tried really hard, but just couldn't figure out how to fix that.) Thanks in advance for any support!--Hildeoc (talk) 13:01, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

PS: As can be seen from here, for instance, in transclusions there is also an excess blank line rendered above that template. How can that be fixed, too?--Hildeoc (talk) 13:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

The Contents: text is highlighted with strong tags (Contents:) rather than b tags (Contents:). These look the same to me, but do they show differently on your browser?
Re the category page. I have just moved the {{Commons category}} infobox up. Not sure if that is a "correct" thing to do, but it seems to remove the blank lines. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 22:16, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not a Lua or CSS expert, but it looks like the word "Contents" is assigned the CSS class "NavHead", which assigns "font-weight: bold;" in MediaWiki:Common.css, and the module also applies <strong>...</strong> tags. This may be the "double" boldface that Hildeoc is describing. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I believe you're right. I edited Module:Large category TOC/sandbox to remove the extra strong and the result can be seen at Template:Collapsible large category TOC/testcases. The second line shows "Contents:" without strong. It's a bit weak and perhaps some tweaking would be in order. Johnuniq (talk) 10:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Featured/GA topicons for mobile

There's currently no display of topicons for mobile readers, which particularly impacts things like GAs and FAs, where it would be very useful for readers to see the designation. There's even a blank space at the top right where the topicons could go. Are there any efforts underway to get topicons to be able to display on mobile? {{u|Sdkb}}talk 04:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

This is phab:T75299 but as far as I know it's not being worked on at the moment. the wub "?!" 13:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
There are hints about this issue at MediaWiki:Manual and MediaWiki:Help:Page status indicators, but I don't see any local CSS files that have relevant statements about the CSS classes that are involved. It is unclear to me where in the MW code or our local configuration that topicons are being displayed or suppressed. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
They aren't really being suppressed, the issue is that MinervaNeue (the mobile skin) doesn't render the indicators at all in the template. I made some quick edits to the code earlier, as GA/FA not being on mobile bugs me too, to add them into the skin, but some design thought needs to go into where to place them; it looks quite ugly to have them to the right for articles with multi-line titles (pics on the phab ticket). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Bug in list-defined references?

At the help desk, a user reported trouble fixing the cite error reported when editing this article: Special:Permalink/973392423. The reported error is "Cite error: A list-defined reference with the name "2011pdf" has been invoked, but is not defined in the <references> tag (see the help page).", but is not true – cite "2011pdf" is ref #2 ("LEADERS OF THE OPPOSITION ..."). Other symptoms of a problem include:

  • ref "2" has backlinks "a" (to note "b") and "b" (to note "c"), but no backlink to note "d", even though note "d" has a (forward) link to ref "2".
  • In the body, there is a (forward) link to note "b" from row 3 in the table, a backlink "a" from note "b" to row "3", a (forward) link to note "b" from row 4 in the table, a backlink "b" from note "b" to row "4". However, there is also a backlink "c" from note "b" that does not do anything (it should not exist, as there is no third use of note "b").

I fixed the spurious error and those symptoms by moving the list-defined notes out of the {{notelist}} up into the table (inline) at Special:Diff/974256349, but I can't see why that didn't work correctly as it was. Is there a bug here, or did I miss something? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 01:23, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

I think this might be T125075. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:10, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Pinging Izno, who created that phab task. Does this look like a match to you? Should we document it at Help:Footnotes? – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:12, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
This has been covered at Wikipedia:Nesting footnotes#4. List-defined references since February 2017. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:56, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
I was just splitting a 4-task task in Phab (i.e. coming). The original is much earlier and I had nothing to do with that filing: phab:T24635. --Izno (talk) 11:25, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@Redrose64: It's not clear that this (somewhat common) case is necessarily covered there, at least not as far as the interplay between groups. This case can be whittled down some to:

This is[A] body text.[B]


  1. ^ a b This is NoteA with Ref1.[1]
  2. ^ This is NoteB with Ref1[1] and Ref2.[2]

Cite error: A list-defined reference with the name "Ref2" has been invoked, but is not defined in the <references> tag (see the help page).


  1. ^ a b This is Ref1.

Cite error: A list-defined reference named "Ref2" is not used in the content (see the help page).

Note that it works fine with just NoteA and Ref1. When I add NoteB and its refs to Ref1 and Ref2 is when thing go sideways. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 21:08, 27 August 2020 (UTC)